Tim Keller Responds and is Responded To
Here’s a quick recap:
Feb. 25, 2008 - Tim Keller is interviewed by Anthony Sacramone, managing Editor of First Things, an interreligious journal of religion, culture, and public life, whose purpose is to advance a religiously informed public philosophy for the ordering of society. The interview is available here.
Feb. 29, 2008 - I issued an “Apostasy Warning” saying, “This is a warning to all Tim Keller fans to raise their discernment levels and be extra cautious in appraising Keller from here on out. If Billy Graham could fall away before our eyes and deny the Gospel, then it could happen to Keller, and that just might be what is happening.” The article is available here.
March 3, 2008 - In the comments section of this blog, someone posted an email that he received from Tim Keller clarifying the statements he made in the First Things interview. The response from Keller appears to be answers to certain questions that were asked of him. The questions were never posted, only the answers. In this response, Keller said: “First, keep in mind I did not write these statements. They were taken down by an interviewer over an hour-long conversation. Then they were transcribed and abridged. This must be borne in mind. Anyone who has ever done interviews knows that the interviewer has to edit and splice the words into paragraphs. You always have to ask the person who was interviewed-’did you say it just like that? Did you mean that?’ When I read the interview afterwards I did not think he had at any point twisted my words-but I knew at a few points he strung statements together in a way that might raise questions.”
March 7, 2007 - BT regular, Travis reports that he received an email from Keller’s assistant that included a link to the March 3, 2008 comment, saying that it should explain everything about these issues. In most BT threads, Travis delightfully engages in the discussions and should be available for any additional commentary.
March 12, 2008 - Anthony Sacramone of First Things responds to Tim Keller’s response. First Things’ Editor Joseph Bottum’s impression was that Keller’s default position was to throw Sacramone “under the bus.” Sacramone responded saying, “If Pastor Keller thought my imperfect editing job had in any way, even unintentionally, misrepresented what he had said to me, he has had two weeks to get in touch with me to that effect. I have heard neither from him nor his publicist, to whom I sent a link to the interview the morning it went live. I have not received even a single email or phone call from anyone who knows Keller questioning my representation of his views-quite the contrary; the feedback I have received from people who know and have worked with him has been uniformly laudatory. This leads me to believe that the interview accurately reflects the pastor’s views.” These are the words of the interviewer…
March 13, 2008 - Anthony Sacramone updates his response by adding the following addendum: UPDATE (3/13-10:10 am) Just got off the phone with Pastor Keller. We both apologized to each other for misunderstandings that could have and should have been avoided. I especially apologized for fanning the flames of a fire that should never have been lit in the first place. Tim Keller is a good man with an important ministry. We’re friends. Everything is cool. End of story.
March 13, 2008 - Don Veinot, President of Midwest Christian Outreach, a Christian Counter-Cult and Apologetics ministry, writes a critical article about me titled “I Don’t Like Apologists.” Veinot’s article begins with, “When I checked my email after the EMNR conference a good friend had sent me a link to Stephen Macasil’s blog article Apostasy Warning: Tim Keller.” In this article, Veinot is critical of my apostasy warning article and uses it as an example of someone who is “quick to act” rather than what James said in James 1:19 - “…let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger…” Veinot was not “quick to act” because the EMNR conference on Biblical Discernment ended four days before he wrote the article, and remember, he didn’t read my article until after the conference. So, that’s at least 3 to 4 days - maximum, hardly qualifying as “quick to act.” For the record, notice the dates above - I waited four days too - and sought council.
March 18, 2008 - Stephen Macasil responds with the following:
Since my February 29, 2008 article “Apostasy Warning: Tim Keller,” I have received many different reactions. I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I have come to the conclusion that either most have not read Keller’s interview and my article, or Keller was correct in saying: “[C.S.] Lewis definitely lived at a time in which people… were able to follow sustained arguments that had a number of points that built on one another. I guess I should say we actually have a kind of rationality-attention-deficit disorder now. You can make a reasonable argument, you can use logic, but it really has to be relatively transparent. You have to get to your point pretty quickly.”
One well-known “pastor” that has asked to remain anonymous (which I will respect), in a slew of insults, ad hominem attacks, and uncharitable name-calling - all directed at me, for what I wrote about his hero, included the ultimate derogatory adjective - “long.” In the rhythm of his ranting on and on about how intellectually unsound my article was, how I was “attacking” Tim Keller, how I’m judgmental, etc., reached the climax in his insults to me by calling my article “long!“ Well, too bad pastor homeboy. The Bible is long, too. So is Keller’s book (which my wife has purchased for me today - and declined to pay $100 for an autographed copy at Barnes & Noble).
These critics should actually take the time to read the article. But they don’t. They just see “Apostasy” and “Keller” and instantly begin to form unwarranted opinions. They look past the “Warning” modifier and skip straight to a bad judgment. They’re actually reading “in” that I’m saying to beware of Keller who is a dangerous wolf. It’s incredible! Even though I express my regret in the opening line, they judge me as an unloving attacker. If I didn’t love God’s people, including Keller and my critics, don’t you think it would make more sense for me to do something more self-serving? Wouldn’t it be more likely for me to push a product or vindicate myself rather than be concerned and jealous (2 Cor. 11:2-3)?
I feel like the Apostle Paul in Galatians 4:16 “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?“ One “pastor” even called me an enemy! I asked him why he was treating me like an enemy, he said: “Enemies are what enemies do. You have attacked a brother, a faithful brother, who is doing good work based on right theology.” I have no idea where that came from, but I can tell you that I disagree that inclusive statements about Catholics and the full endorsement of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity are based on right theology. Add that to the “God used evolution” bit and you’ve got three major bus-stops toward apostasy. The bus to apostasy has a final destination, I’m just pointing out that he hasn’t gotten off yet. Next stop - Molinism? NPP/FV? Who knows?
I still recommend that all proceed with caution when it comes to Keller. I recommend that we look for signs of whether he begins to lean towards or away from these concerns. In much of the same way that people have automatically assumed that I was declaring Keller as a wayward heretic because they saw the words “Apostasy” and “Keller” in the same sentence, many people blindly assume that he is sound and fully trustworthy because they see the words “Reformed” and “Keller” in the same sentence. May we never become a people that abandon the biblical mandate to test all things (1 Thess. 5:21)! Keller may be sound in many areas, but we still must be cautious, lest we forget how sound we thought Billy Graham once was - and know now is not anymore.
P.S. I’m not sure if I’ll respond to Veinot’s really odd (and long) article yet. Maybe we should send the BT comment-hounds in on him first. What do you think?
19 Comments, Comment or Ping
Reformed Mama
…”do not become weary in well doing”…we are with you…woof woof
Mar 19th, 2008
Fusion!
Let the hounding begin!!!!! I might add, I have the book and am about half way through it and will have a critical review up soon. And it is sad that people really have no discernment anymore. It’s all knee-jerk reactions and no thoughtful reflection.
Mar 19th, 2008
OvercommiTad2theWord
Keep up the good work!
Is it a bad thing now to give a warning? How much of the true Gospel needs to be compromised before reproving & rebuking 25%, 50%, 99%? Why do some of these guys think that they are the only ones who can be critical?
TK has made statements that merit a warning. The critics need to
“Cowboy-up” and deal with what he has said.
Mar 19th, 2008
Darrinb
As we have seen first hand there are many who will choose friend before Christ. Steve, if someone were to come to me and say that you are a heretic, false prophet, or wolf in sheeps clothing, my knee jerk response would be to ask for an example of the violation(s) and the chapter and verseof Scripture that has been violated. Then we could discuss the issue from there. While we are friends if you are in violation of scripture, I would come to you and lovingly point that out. If you would not recant, but proceed to give me the PR juke, or persist in your violation of Scripture and its principles, we must then part ways. I would then have to give Kudos to the one who pointed out said violation for “contending for the faith once and for all delivered to us the Saints.” I would not criticize, attack, or name call the person who has pointed this out.
The corrections, adjustments and apologies need to be made by the one in violation of Scripture, not PR cover-ups. We are looking for Scriptural answers to these Scriptural accusations.
For those who are friends of Pastor Keller, re-examine the claims against him, if they are not according to Scripture, confront the accusor on this basis. But, if the accusations are Scriptural confront the one who is in violation. If Keller is a friend and brother in Christ, then you have an obligation to him to confront him with the Scriptures. Do not be upset with those who are seeking to protect the sheep of Christ’s Kingdom, be leary and ready to correct and confront those leaders who may look, smell, walk and talk like wolves.
Christ warned us that these wolves would exist. So let us not be suprised when we do find one or criticize those who are keeping their eye out for them.
Remember your LORD has said: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits… So then, you will know them by their fruits.” Matt 7:15-16a, 20
Thank you BT for keeping watch over the pasture for those wolves who may occassionally sneak in under the guise of the skin of wool and a BAAH! BAAH! here and there. Some of us sheep are not always sharp enough to examine one another. Some of us are not brave enough to yell out when the sheep next to us looks strange and is sporting a set of fangs. This may be seen as being disruptive, and sometimes all the sheep want to do is quietly graze on the grass, even if that means a few of our fellow sheep are picked off in the process.
Mar 19th, 2008
agogley
Be encouraged Stephen!!
Mar 19th, 2008
Drew
Tim Keller will be speaking at a conference with a few preachers of another gospel. http://www.exponentialconference.org
Keller better bring some sound biblical teaching, because we’ll have a sermon review shortly after he delivers the message at the conference.
Mar 19th, 2008
Travis
That is going to be an interesting confrence, I hope Tim takes the opportunity to share the truths of the scripture? I think this one will be a tell all about Tim, I am going to be praying for him that he will not back down.
Mar 20th, 2008
Denise
Steve,
You certainly aren’t the only one who has been through the fire when cautioning and questioning a “well known” man. I know how that goes, personally. Hang in there. We each need to have the conviction of “Its me and Jesus against the world.” All else may fail you, but HE will not. Your allegiance (and mine) MUST be to Christ above all things.
This article scares me, because YET AGAIN it sums up just how much people have the Magisterium Charismatic Mentality: do NOT question nor challenge a “well known” man, a favorite author, speaker, teacher, pastor or professor. To do so is to question God, and will bring judgment upon one’s head.
“Touch not my seminary anointed and do my Reformed prophets no harm!”
Steve, I am amazed (not sure why I should be any more) at how supposed mature men in Christ treat others when their favorite man’s called to accountability. They circle the wagons, dig their feet in, and up out of their mouths come out the things they turn and accuse others of doing. They beat the sheep for being a Berean and loving Truth above all things. They violate Scripture when it says:
Jas 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Those who LOVE man’s logic and reasoning, I have found, are often the first to break their precious logic rules when their man is found failing the test of Scripture. I guess the logic rules are good for everyone else but themselves. The hypocrisy of judging a person for judging is gaining acceptance. Unbelievable.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.
Jas 3:10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
Jas 3:11 Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water?
Jas 3:12 Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.
Jas 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. Jas 3:15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
Jas 3:16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
Why is it that people worry about a man’s position rather than God’s Truth? Don’t people care about what is being given to the sheep? A
Let this be an encouragement:
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Mar 21st, 2008
Denise
“In this article, Veinot is critical of my apostasy warning article and uses it as an example of someone who is “quick to act” rather than what James said in James 1:19 - “…let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger…” ”
The context of this verse is:
Jas 1:18 Of His own will he brought us forth by the WORD OF TRUTH, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted WORD, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
I thought I might add, that those who often quote James 1:19 take it out of context, using it as a conversation stopper (don’t you dare judge a brother!)
It is not talking about being quick to hear a MAN. Its about being quick to hear the WORD of God. We are to be quick to listen to HIS Word, and slow to speak and slow to become angry with what God says in His Word about us and our sin.
We ARE to judge all things, especially those who claim to be believers, but especially teachers and pastors within Christianity (Matthew 7:15-17; 1Cor 5; 1John 1:6-7; 2:4; 2John 1:9-10; Gal. 1:8-10; Heb. 5:14; 2Thes. 3:14-15, etc.).
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
No one gets a free pass. Paul certainly did not expect it. In fact Paul rebuked Peter publically for his hypocrisy (Gal. 2:11-14; Acts 17:11).
Mar 21st, 2008
Fusion!
I would add that we must make sure to give people a fair hearing. In this day of sound bytes and cut and paste blogging, it’s very easy to misrepresent someone else’s position. Having said that, Keller’s interview is very troubling. I knew when i first read it that it would raise a lot of red flags. However, it’s not necessarily been the case. What’s even more interesting is that had this been R.C. Sproul or even Dr. Bob making this statement we would be hearing a lot more. But as Stephen has pointed out, even in the Reformed movement, the RCC is creeping in.
Mar 21st, 2008
John Warren
Steve,
I like your style, though I was concerned for a while that my new hero (Keller) was actually a heretic. I don’t mind strong language–it is useful sometimes. I’m glad to hear that Keller doesn’t support Catholic church plants. That was the most disturbing part of the published interview–the idea that he did.
I’m half-disturbed at Keller’s inclusiveness toward Catholics. Does he mean the individual Catholic, or the preacher of Catholic doctrine? I believe these are very different and can come under different judgements, since the some of the former may really believe (despite Catholic doctrine), while the latter promulgate false doctrine if they’re faithful to their tradition.
As for the evolution slippery slope, I have no problem with God using it, or with a Christian being open minded about it. One interpretation of Gen 1:2 is “and the Earth became a waste and a desolation”, which could allow for a lot of time. I would be more concerned if Keller denied the Jonah story (since Jesus obviously believed it literally).
Thanks again for your warning. Time is short and we need shocking statements sometimes.
Mar 26th, 2008
Travis
Recent interview with Keller on monergism
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/kellerinterview.html
I read through it quickly, one thing I liked was it reminded me that its good to challenge peoples beliefs and answers questions, without preaching the gospel right away, but at the same time to be ready to preach the gospel.
Mar 29th, 2008
antithesis/warnings!
Many pastors, and former attendees are critical of the Redeemer movement in general, and also its market-driven ethos. Perhaps, his latest volume, also speaks of a market-driven mindedness in which he aims for a broad popularity. Remember, our Lord Himself, wept over Jerusalem, and also rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. He was stripped, and broken for our transgressions. I have attended many of the Redeemer worship services, and also been involved in their church plants. They are ‘market driven,’ and rarely have I heared sermons warning the sheep. In fact, it is rare in the name of ’seeker friendly,’ or reaching the skeptical — that they speak of the ‘harsh sayings in the gospel.’ Most of the followers of ‘Tim,’ boast about his rhetorical skills — and how intelligent he is. I think it really detracts from Christ. I have invited non-believers there who have called it a ‘cult.’ Now this book? Skeptical!!!
Apr 11th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Did you used to attend regularly, or were you a member? Where are these “many pastors and former attendees” today? Do you know them?
Apr 11th, 2008
Antithesis/warnings!
Yes…I first attended when they first got started. Many have been ’silenced’ for fear of being black-listed, as the ‘movement’ is so popular. Also, it have taken almost ‘cultish’ proportions, because they are so powerful. Paul himself, as an apostle had to contend with these ’superapostles.’ Many churches these days, are built on the marketing skills as well as the ‘charisma’ of its leaders. As New Yorkers, and Americans have just recently experienced ‘papal’ authority, and so-called leadership, one has to remember, that the LORD Himself, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey –was rejected by men, and these ‘leaders,’ enjoy such success — court the wealthy — and enjoy such prosperity. How can they do all these things? Will Jesus say to these ‘preachers:’ ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, or will he say, ‘I never knew you?’ Jesus became poor for us, while these ‘Christian’ leaders are rich/powerful, and seduce sheep. When will be follow ONLY Christ…not it’s ‘preachers.’ Also, Paul ended up in prison — imitating Christ. Christ himself, was crucified outside of the city. Here, they position themselves — target the wealthy –but don’t LIVE and DWELL with the poor. What sort of community development goals do they really manifest?
Apr 20th, 2008
Bumble
I would have to beg to differ. I know quite a few of Tim’s disciples who are actually LIVE and DWELL with the poor. In fact, those living examples in church planting is what attracted me to really listen to what Tim had to say.
Apr 21st, 2008
Sean
Wow! I’m amazed at what lengths you people spend your time majoring on topics widely debated w/in Christianity!
25%/50%/75%/99% goodness gracious, seems to me that even misalignment of 1% of YOUR THEOLOGY would qualify as grounds for blogging miles deep and trying to bury those such as Keller and Driscoll who are reaching the lost w/o using a watered down version of Christianity to do so.
My theology is Reformed. I’m a young earth creationist.
That being said, I am saddened by my peers who fall in these camps that labor SO HARD at being being “right” in their theology and SO LITTLE in reaching the lost!
Perhaps you spend just as much - if not more - time, energy, and effort in reaching the lost as you do on blogs such as this, so forgive me if this seems accusatory and off base, but…
Ask yourselves, “Do I invest more time and energy in blogging/commenting/debating/etc in Reformed theology and Creationism than I do reaching the lost?”
I know for myself, that I spent far more labor “entertaining” myself in listening to sermons and reading books about theology and apologetics than I ever did applying what I’ve learned to a dying world around me. By God’s grace, I’m changing.
In closing, yes, it’s important to exercise discernment, to give & heed warnings of false doctrine that IS worth dividing on (and PLEASE don’t reply back and tell me, “well, I didn’t realize there are things in the Bible that are optional, please tell me what they are” as if you do, then consider yourself a wingnut like those who protest outside PK conventions saying “Promise Keepers sends people to hell” Neither you nor I are God and therefore none of use have a 100% correct view of EVERYTHING in the Bible and thus historic Christianity has produced what we can refer to as essential doctrine, if you don’t agree with me on this one then we have no grounds for further discussion).
Brothers and sisters, I encourage all of you to stop focusing so hard on being “right” and slinging mud but instead rather to use your fervent zeal to BUILD UP the saints and REACH the lost!
Aug 13th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Wow, Sean. That’s a rather wide-sweeping, general judgment pronounced by you on everyone who is not you (you people). Is there something specific that you are referring to, or are you just generally dissatisfied in what you’ve seen here that is not in accord to your standard of time management?
Aug 13th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
Hi Sean,
To quote you:
“”"”That being said, I am saddened by my peers who fall in these camps that labor SO HARD at being being “right” in their theology and SO LITTLE in reaching the lost! “”"”"
You ignorance is understandable since it is warped in traditional falsity. We are not ALL called to witness to the lost. That is NOT the goal or dominate function of the Church today.
Ephesians 4:11 indicate that SOME were called to be evangelists. If only SOME were called, that logically means not ALL were called. Some were called in preaching and teaching (but not all).
However apologetics is dominately an evangelical mode (e.g. Acts 13:28), it can be used for other avenues (e.g. teaching).
This is probably where everybody will disagree with me on this blog. However, the Great Commision is NOT Matthew 28:18-20. The titles in your Bible are not inspired. Logically, if some are called to be evangelists, and this is the great commisision of the Church, then this contradicts the some and turns into ALL.
The great Commision of the Church is found in such passages as Ephesians 4:12.
You said:
“”"”Brothers and sisters, I encourage all of you to stop focusing so hard on being “right” and slinging mud but instead rather to use your fervent zeal to BUILD UP the saints and REACH the lost!”"”
Reaching the lost is not the dominate means of the Church again. The only other option in the focus of not being right would be the focus on being wrong.
Scripture tells us to use our mind as a sacrifice (Romans 12:1-2). It also tells us to rightly divide (TIm 2:15).
You seem to focus that evangelism is for everybody. That is wrong. Thus if you focus more on what’s right perhaps you will cease from making fallacious and unBiblical statements.
In Christ,
Jean Cauvin
Aug 16th, 2008
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