Jun 1, 2009
Tiller the Killer is Dead
Grace & Peace brothers and sisters.
We could have a huge discussion on the manner in which Dr. Tiller was taken from this world. We can all easily imagine how it would go. But for today, let’s do two things. Let our hearts be glad that God is on His throne! Tiller will never kill babies again and for that we should be grateful. Secondly, let’s examine how our fellow country men are reacting. For example, my husband found this article which reveals some of what is on apostate Eastern Orthodox convert, Frankie Schaeffer’s heart regarding the death of Tiller. Amazingly, he blames his father, the beloved Francis Schaeffer!
Take a look at this article and then we can meet back here for some discussion.
44 Comments, Comment or Ping
Derek Manning
Even though I find his practice utterly repugnant, I do not join your rejoicing over his murder. The alleged murder, did this dastardly act in the name of Christ, and this is an act of terrorism that has NO scriptural back-up. Jesus said that those who live by the sword will perish by the sword. Kansas has the death penalty on the books, sadly its courts have not exercised this option since 1976. It is my prayer that Scott Roeder will face be the first to face the death penalty.
Rather than rejoicing in the death of this “Doctor”. We should be praying for justice in the case of his alleged murderer.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Sir Aaron
Why is it an act of terrorism? It’s just a murder. We need to stop attributing everything as terrorism. Terrorism is is designed to cause terror in order to achieve a political objective. This was just vengeance, which, of course, is wrong.
I don’t know where to even start with Frankie Schaeffer.
As far as Tiller goes, I can’t endorse a vengeance killing, but Proverbs does say “The righteousness of the blameless keeps his way straight,
but the wicked falls by his own wickedness.”
Jun 2nd, 2009
Carol H
Just in case anyone is interested, Frank Schaeffer also makes some very strong statements in an article, “Open Letter to the Republican Traitors (From A Former Republican),” and YouTube video–interview with DL Hughley also on the same web page at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/open-letter-to-the-republ_b_172822.html Hughley looks stunned at some of the statements that Schaeffer made. One other article is entitled, “Obama’s Minister Committed ‘Treason’ But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero” at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obamas-minister-committe_b_91774.html
I believe George Tiller was wrong in what he was doing–even though the media seems to want to make much out of how sincere Tiller was in his beliefs. I also believe that the killing of George Tiller was a vigilante murder and there is no scriptural support for such an act. If Scott Roeder is in fact the murderer, he should be brought to justice through our court system.
Even though I think Frank Schaeffer goes too far on many of the conclusions he has drawn and some of the accusations he has made against his father, I think a few of his statements should give us pause for thought. For example, if a person (that we are fond of and is in the same political party we are in) makes a statement on some issue of the day, do we agree with them merely because the person is popular and of the same political party we are? then condemn someone else (not like us or a member of our political party) who makes a similar statement.
Also, we can consider if we are consistent in our actions and acting according to scripture. We can state that abortion is wrong. It is also sometimes needed to peacefully protest evil. It is easy to state that abortion is wrong. Yet we need to consider if we are ready to help women who are facing difficult circumstances–whether the circumstances arose out of the woman’s poor choices or through no fault of the woman (such as incest or rape)? Some examples might be support of crisis pregnancy counseling and support of maternity homes.
It does bother me that Frank Schaeffer seems to want to put blame on his father for hate speech. In the mid-1980’s, I read Frank Schaeffer’s book, “A Time for Anger.” At that time, (Frank) seemed to condone protesting abortion by blocking entrances to clinics (as mentioned in the book) and hinted that it might be acceptable for people to destroy clinic property since it was used for illegitimate purposes. He (Frank) has totally changed his mind on this.
I don’t see his father, Francis Schaeffer, as ever holding this particular position–as approving destruction of property and violence against people. Mere disagreement with an opponent is no hate speech. To compare Francis Schaffer’s example of Hitler’s Germany (being an illegitimate government) to a vigilante killing is simply not a fair comparison and distorts the facts. I fear that Frank Schaeffer is now distorting a number of things and doing much harm.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Denise
How in the world does standing for Truth make the righteous responsible for evil?? That’s downright unbiblical as well as irrational. It also minimizes personal responsibility of those who approve of or actually do the evil deed. God doesn’t put the blame of murder on those who are against it, so why should anyone else?
Schaffer is an angry man who clearly hates God and hates his dead father. His bitterness will never go away until he repents of all his sin and bow to the authority of Jesus Christ. In the meantime, he seems to follow the liberal mindset of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
If anyone’s to blame for the death of this man, its the man who killed him. Psychobabble is inappropriate for Christians to use to see what’s really going on.
I do believe, though, that many who claim to be pro-life, aren’t really, because many vote for pro-abortionist political leaders with “R”. So our actions in how we vote speaks to how we REALLY view the abortion issue. If we can’t even vote in line with Scripture (not fearing the opposition), then we don’t really believe what we claim we do.
But again I’ll say, those who actually stand for righteousness are not to blame for the evil.
Fear God.
Vote biblically.
Don’t Compromise.
Do you?
Jun 2nd, 2009
john
http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html
George Tiller was a serial murderer under the guise of ‘helping women terminate unwanted children”. This is the kind of spirit that justifies itself standing over its corpses.
While Tillers murder was an act of murder, I find it poetic justice that such a monster was taken out of the world.
Christianity is not “nice feelings about bad people”. That is a characature.
Its also a very telling and seeming “prophetic” statement about the state of the Church in America. The Church of Jesus Christ declares that such abortion is murder, yet within its own walls a prolific killer maintained his occupation without excommunication. This is a telling statement on the spiritual condition of our congregations.
Im surely not implying that bad folks shouldnt come to church. Im only saying that every day that man murdered, every day that man drenched his hands in innocent blood. Should we be silent to such a man? Would you be silent to him if he were allowed to usher in your church? Service in a local assembly is a privlege, its a spiritual offering given by God’s children. This man was a murderer, no murder has eternal life in him. Whats next? Yes, I know open abomination granted access to the pulpit. Why am I not amazed?
John
Jun 2nd, 2009
Denise
P.S. That question is not directed at anyone in particular, but everyone in general as a challenge. Does your voting record reflect biblical principles? Or do you fear the “worse of the two evils” so you vote for evil nonetheless?
In other words, Schwarzenegger has always been pro-abortion, pro-homosexual rights and I warned Christians of this prior to election day the first time around. We had Christians pushing this man on us…twice. Now we are reaping the consequences. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=99442
To put it another way, Christians GAVE US a liberal man. How does that square with biblical doctrine?
If our fight against abortion is through the political process (to keep in step with Romans 13), then our votes should reflect this. Sadly, it did not for the majority of professing Christians in the last few years.
But we have to remember, this is first and foremost a spiritual battle. Abortion, friends, happens all too often in the churches today too. I don’t see pro-life being as strong of an issue to stand on these days than in the past.
RM, absolutely the one comforting fact is that God truly IS reigning and ruling this world and we can rest in His sovereign hand. If only Christians truly lived that out and not feared man. =(
Jun 2nd, 2009
Carol H
I suspect that this act of vigilante-style justice has made George Tiller a martyr and hero in the eyes of the “pro-choice” movement. Doctors, who perform abortions, and other supporters will find an excuse to be hardened in their sin and may even blaspheme God. At the least. such people will continue to express their preference for a god made like unto themselves.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Denise
Tiller the Killer’s abomination of a “church” website: http://www.reformation-lutheran.org/
This statement is absolutely horrific; in part it says:
Quote:
The Reformation Lutheran Church family is shocked and deeply saddened by the violent murder of Dr. George Tiller, a longtime member of our congregation, that occurred in our church home May 31.
Our congregation strives to be a safe place for all people. We deplore the violence that took place within the walls of our church. Further, we reject any notion that violence against another human being is an acceptable way to resolve differences over any issue. We must always strive to engage in peaceful discussion. Our faith calls us to this. Our humanity demands it.
In the wake of this tragic event, our deepest concern is for the family of George Tiller. We ask the community to join us in prayer for them as they face the difficult days ahead. Our hearts ache with them. We also ask that the family’s privacy be respected.
..In this time of uncertainty, we stand firm in the promises of Jesus Christ: forgiveness, hope, love, and new life, even from death. We pray for healing and peace to be restore…
The Rev. Lowell Michelson
The Rev. Kristin Neitzel
Reformation Lutheran Church
End quote.
Clearly this is not God’s church:
1. Thave a woman pastor which violates one of the clearest commands in Scripture: 1Tim2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
2. They allowed this baby murderer to be a member, unrepentant, undisicplined. Likely money had a part of it as is their feminism.
3. They endorsed and supported this man even after his death.
4. They don’t call HIS murders “violent” or “tragic”.
5. They are liars: “Further, we reject any notion that violence against another human being is an acceptable way to resolve differences over any issue.” Apparenly they don’t reject the violence against the babies to resolve an unwanted pregnancy and fornication.
6. They have no clue about peace. Abortion rips not only a baby apart piece by piece, but it rips a woman’s soul. What they really want is justification for their damnable practices, not truly godly peace. That would require salvation.
This is what I mean when I say that professing Christians mourn MORE over the loss of a serial killer than the thousands of lives he slaughters.
THIS IS WHY GOD’S JUDGMENT WILL BEGIN WITH THE CHURCHES WHO PROFESS HIS NAME BUT JUSTIFY SIN.
These people have no fear of God. Do they not see that God is judging them?
Jun 2nd, 2009
Reformed Mama
Hi Derek,
I met you once at FCC and assumed you were Reformed, are you? In some ways your post does not reflect a Reformed view. I posted an article in January, consider a portion of it:
RM: “Join me, Christian, in praying in an imprecatory manner for the unsaved who go about doing the devil’s will (2 Tim.2). Go here http://www.the-highway.com/articleJune00.html for an article by Jay Adams on imprecatory prayer. Consider this excerpt:
“Luther’s exposition of John 17:9 gives us careful instruction and a true illustration of this prayer for our enemies:
“We should pray that our enemies be converted and become our friends, and if not, that their doing and designing be bound to fail and have no success and that their persons perish rather than the Gospel and the kingdom of Christ. Thus the saintly martyr Anastasia, a wealthy, noble Roman matron, prayed against her husband, an idolatrous and terrible ravager of Christians, who had flung her into a horrible prison, in which she had to stay and die. There she lay and wrote to the saintly Chrysogonus diligently to pray for her husband that, if possible, he be converted and believe; but if not, that he be unable to carry out his plans and that he soon make an end of his ravaging. Thus she prayed him to death, for he went to war and did not return home. So we, too, pray for our angry enemies, not that God protect and strengthen them in their ways, as we pray for Christians, or that He help them, but that they be converted, if they can be; or, if they refuse, that God oppose them, stop them and end the game to their harm and misfortune.”
And, so I have prayed in this imprecatory way for these beasts who murder our little ones made in the image of God! I did not use the term “rejoice” but yes, I do! Tiller’s evil has ceased! I always rejoice at the ceasing of evil when I hear of it! God is Sovereign and has done the ceasing!
Thirdly, as a Reformer, one learns to hold things in tension. While it is marvelous and God-ordained that Tiller is dead, it is also true that the shooter will face our country’s laws and penalties. So, we do not choose one over the other as you have suggested.
And you are correct, those who live by the sword will also die by the sword…and so he has.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Denise
Here’s an interesting thought: http://washingtonindependent.com/45216/dont-assume-tillers-killer-acted-alone
This might be the “in” that abortion-rights activists including our government, is looking for to shut Christians down and seeing us as Domestic Threats to National security, if they buy the horrific and liberal view of Schaffer.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Stephen Macasil
Regarding Frank Schaeffer’s (FS) article,
He’s basically saying that there is a consequence whenever an idea is expressed with words, and that when words are acted upon by followers that the one who spoke the words are accountable. His argument flows something like this:
1. The words of pro-life leaders contribute to an extreme and sometimes violent climate. 2. This climate produces a context from which their words lead to violence when taken seriously by some followers in that created context. 3. Tiller was murdered by someone from within that created context. 4. Therefore, pro-life leaders contributed to this killing by their words.
If FS argues successfully, and if an actual violation is established against pro-life leaders both former and current, then it is unjust to allow their actions to remain unpunished. If FS has admitted his guilt in the murder of Tiller, then he should take the responsibility of his contributions to the crime.
But I have a sneaking suspicion that the hypocrisy of FS will emerge when charges are brought against him and potential jail time is looming. I wouldn’t be surprised if he defended himself saying he was only speaking metaphorically or “spiritually.” But according to the argument in his article, he’s on the hook and therefore should do the time!
Jun 2nd, 2009
Denise
Stephen,
One wonders why FS doesn’t use the same arguementation against Muslims/the quaran/Muhammad.
How about the incitement of the 93 LA riots from Maxine Waters (”no justice, no peace”)?
I’m guessing they get a free pass. Clearly Schaffer’s beef isn’t with Christianity, but with God. And HIS Word has consequences for sure.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Derek Manning
Reformed Mama,
Yes, you did meet me at FCC. Please understand that I am all for praying imprecatory prayers. I have done prayed imprecatory prayers for the enemies of Dr. Bob and others that I believe have strayed from orthodox theology and have willfully stayed on that course. However, in the case of this vigilante and terrorist, I am not sharing in the squeals of joy that I hear from many orthodox and pro-life Christians. I am also praying an imprecatory prayer for this vigilante and terrorist. I pray that the full measure of justice fall upon him, up to and including the death penalty.
Yes, I too believe, that God is ultimately sovereign in that dastardly murder. I am resting in the promise that God will turn around this evil for good. However, that does not clear this vigilante and terrorist of violating the clear teaching of Scripture.
The vigilante and terrorist has placed a black mark on the cross of Christ by murdering. There is no Scriptural warrant for this sort of behavior, and is quite simply the behavior I expect from Islam and other world religions. The vigilante and terrorist has violated the clear commands of our Lord and Savior, and for this he should face church discipline.
Regardless of the murdered doctors crimes, it is not up to Christians to affect political change via the use of violence. This is terrorism, and is wholly unscriptural. On the other hand, we are to be salt and light, and to affect change using peaceful means. The greatest model of affecting change without the use of violence is Jesus Christ.
I am also upset over this incident and the response of some pro-life Christians, because of the negative effect it has had in my own apolgetics and evangelistic work. In the past few days I have had people I have been talking hurl this in incident and the response by pro-life Christians hurl this in my face.
One last thing, if my not joining in your “rejoicing” over this act means I am not Reformed in your eyes, then so be it.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Reformed Mama
Hi Sir Aaron~
You are so right…the term “terrorism” is over used. From what we know this shooter was trying to stop baby murder period. And Proverbs does say “the wicked falls by his own wickedness” …and so he has.
Jun 2nd, 2009
Reformed Mama
Hi Carol~
The answer is No, no thinking Christian who’s mind has been renewed by the Word should just agree with someone because they are of a particular political party.
But, I’m afraid Frankie Schaeffer has “been taken captive to do the devil’s will” (2 Tim 2:26) and being “ignorant and unstable has twisted the Scriptures to his own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). You can see this pattern throughout his life, his conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy and his strange lefty rants are but two examples. May he come to Saving Faith!
And, yes, Tiller will most likely be viewed as a “martyr”. How sick. 60,000 babies dead due to this filthy “hero”.
My eyes are fixed on Christ for He is my Rock and my Salvation!
Jun 2nd, 2009
Sir Aaron
Derek: Vigilante, yes. Terrorism, no. Stop using the description of terrorism. You merely play into the liberal’s hands by doing so. And people are going to through something in your face regardless of whether this incident occured because as Denise said, these people hate God. Jesus told us that they don’t hate us, but He who sends us.
Denise: Arguably you are just as guilty for Obama as those who voted for him. You voted for a third party which essentially helped to elect Obama. Had those third party people voted for McCain, we would be continuing most of the policies regarding abortion as under Bush. We’d also be in the position of nominating a conservative justice which would sway the balance of the Supreme Court decisively. So I really don’t want to hear your continuing rail against those who chose to vote for somebody that could actually win an election.
P.S. And just so you know, I voted for McClintock after Davis’ recall (left Sodom before the second vote).
Jun 2nd, 2009
Fusion!
Sir Aaron: DITTO. I also voted for Tom and asked my friends not to vote for Arnold. Well, told ya so. As for Tiller’s death, I do not rejoice in it. That man took the law into his own hands. A very utilitarian approach really. He tried to do the right thing, in the wrong way. One abortion doctor may make a difference, but it will not do a thing for the pro-life cause. He’s now given the other side a martyr and more “proof” that those of us who are pro-life are gun totting nut jobs. The media will have a field day with this (they do anyways to be honest) but I’d rather have thousands of Christians give more of their time talen and treasure to the cause of life. And really, would anyone here take a gun and do the same thing tomorrow?
Jun 2nd, 2009
Derek Manning
Sir Aaron,
Here is your own definition, “Terrorism is is designed to cause terror in order to achieve a political objective.” Please explain to me how this act does not fit your own definition of terrorism?
Jun 2nd, 2009
Sir Aaron
Derek: Because the killing of Tiller was not designed to cause terror (to others) in order to convince the general populace (or anybody else for that matter) to implement certain policial objectives. An example of terrorism might be if Tiller was killed in order to convince other abortion providers that they’d also be killed so they better stop providing abortions. So far, that doesn’t appear to be the case.
Actually, we have no idea what the motive was behind the killing, but from available facts it looks like a vigilante or vengeance killing.
Terrorism’s motive is to achieve a state of terror. It is designed entirely to use fear in order to make people, nations, etc. adopt political policies in order to stop the attacks.
Jun 3rd, 2009
Sir Aaron
Fusion:
I actually thought If ever there was a time for a true conservative to win, it was after Davis was recalled. If we had all gotten behind McClintock early, Arnold would never have entered the race. Ifyou recall, he waited quite a while to make his annoucement, as if he were surveying the chances of his winning first. But, of course, McClintock was a (R) not some third party who runs on conspiracy theories and crazy economic platforms (and who also happens to be pro-life).
Jun 3rd, 2009
OvercommiTad2theWord
Fusion said, “He’s now given the other side a martyr and more “proof” that those of us who are pro-life are gun totting nut jobs.”
You say the media has been given more proof, but did this change how the media represents us? No, before this occurred we were right-wing, gun toting, religious nuts after a mass murderer of babies is killed we are gun toting, right-wing, religious nuts. The media did not change its perception of us nor will it until we change to match their anti-Christ world view of human autonomy.
If any terrorism may exist, may it be that other late term (or any term for that matter) abortion “doctors” fear Tiller’s end when they follow Tiller’s works.
Psalm 58:10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Jun 3rd, 2009
Fusion!
As I also mentioend, they do anyways. All this man did was play into the stereotype. If you want to throw a champagne party over this mans death, go ahead. But I stand by my question: will you go and do likewise?
Jun 3rd, 2009
Sir Aaron
‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.
Jun 4th, 2009
Fusion!
Thanks Sir. More so, I would add that we are told that the State carries the sword. To take vengeance into our own hands is wrong indeed. If not, let’s go run over some drug dealers, or pedophile priests, or prostitutes. We can rejoice in their deaths too.
Jun 4th, 2009
Reformed Mama
Sir Aaron, I appreciate all that you have contributed to this thread! We also voted for McClintock and would have dearly loved to see him win. What a mess we have here in Cali. Obama is directly responsible for the loss of most of our (modest) investments and my husband’s job. So, we are headed to the mid-west at the end of the month.
Fusion, I don’t really care for your tone. It has been clearly stated here that while we do NOT condone the gunning down of a fellow man, we ARE glad he will no longer murder babies! There is nothing unbiblical about that! 60,000 babies by this doctor is plenty wouldn’t you say? It is NOT either/or, it’s both! Reformed thinking…right?
Stephen, congrats, you were pretty much the only one to stay on topic. You have summed up the problem with Frankie’s rant very nicely! Not much more to be said. Although I do wonder what the EOs think about his being off the reservation, so to speak.
Jun 4th, 2009
Sir Aaron
Fusion: I think rejoicing is a natural reaction when one sees the vengeance of the Lord. I know I struggle with this temptation A LOT. I often look forward to seeing the wicked get what’s coming to them. Tad did quote a good verse in that “The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.”
There is a difference in rejoicing over the act itself and rejoicing over seeing the fruition of the vengeance and justice of the Lord. We don’t want to see men like Tiller killed but rather come to faith in Christ and repentance. This is our goal and the work set before us. But when the Lord exercises his good judgement (and as we believe in election, so we also believe that everything is ordained by God) then believers ought to rejoice.
And yes, when drug dealers and pedophiles and others exercise evil and control lives, then beleivers should rejoice when God met’s out his justice. But again, our first desire is to see them come into the Kingdom of God. This is a concept that requires Biblical maturity to fully digest.
Jun 5th, 2009
Sir Aaron
Reformed, moving to the midwest? Where to? Come to Houston, TX! Job opportunities here, great church you can attend!
Jun 5th, 2009
OvercommiTad2theWord
Fusion-
These are Francis Schaffer’s words from a speech and from “A Christian Manifesto”. I believe this would apply to abortion in that the Government has sanctioned that killing what God calls (in Psalm 127) “a gift from the LORD; a productive womb, the LORD’s reward.”
“When the government negates the law of God, it abrogates its authority. God has given certain offices to restrain chaos in this fallen world, but it does not mean that these offices are autonomous, and when a government commands that which is contrary to the Law of God, it abrogates its authority.”
If this is not government over-stepping their God given authority to you what is?
Jun 5th, 2009
Reformed Mama
Sir Aaron,
We are headed to Kansas for now, we have family there!
Jun 5th, 2009
Fusion!
OVERCOMMITAD2THEWORD
Are you an anarchist? Let’s be honest, how broken is our court system? 9should you kill activist judges?) How drug dependent are people? (How many drug dealers would you like to go run over?) How many thousands of porn films are made in the Valley? (Shall we go to a few shops are burn them down? Or the city hall that gives them their business license?) Dr. Schaeffer is a great man, but I’m not so sure he would have advocated the murder of Dr. Tiller. 1 Peter 4:15 states:
15If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.
Jun 7th, 2009
Mario Herrera
Much has been said on this thread and many convictions expressed. When you hear of the wickedness that happens, I would say that except for the grace of God there go I. When I hear of the wickedness that is done to children by pedophiles, rapists, and murders…..it can drive you to the point of wanting to take matters into your own hands!
I don’t have children, however, if I knew someone hurt my children or family members, it would take an act of divine intervention to hold me back!
As for this Tiller the Killer, ultimately, the Lord’s judgment fell upon him and he was killed. Taken out of the way! We may not be happy with the way it happened, but God’s will was accomplished.
Unless of course, the murderer was operating by luck or chance…..
But since we do not believe that is the case since God is on His throne and His sovereignty rules over all.
Sadly, there are still many others out there who kill babies! May God have mercy on this country!
“In his heart a man plans his way, but God directs his steps.” Proverbs 16:9
“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” Amos 3:6
Jun 8th, 2009
J. Herrera
Proverbs 11:10 — When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting.
Jun 8th, 2009
Mario Herrera
Plato is dead,
Socrates is dead,
Tiller the Killer is dead, however…………..
Jesus is Alive!
Jun 8th, 2009
Reformed Mama
Amen Mario & Jennyn! I was starting to feel pretty alone on this crazy thread. My husband is being asked if he is an anarchist??? What the hell???
Amos 3 and Proverbs 11 have encouraged me today…thank you!
Tiller the Killer IS dead, however…JESUS IS ALIVE!!
Mario, I love it!!
Jun 8th, 2009
Denise
Aaron, it would be good if you asked instead of assume about me and then try to build a strawman against my stand. I did not vote for a third party.
It defies logic how not voting for someone is voting for someone. How in the world does standing for Truth make the righteous responsible for evil?? That’s downright unbiblical as well as irrational.
McCain:
voted to confirm Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Steven Breyer to the Supreme Court…
conspired with Democrats in the Senate to block approval of Bush’s most conservative jurists…
had an affair with Cindy his current wife while married to his first wife Carol, and acknowledged his multiple girlfriends over the years…
went against the voters (56% ) of his state of AZ, who passed Prop 200 requiring proof of citizenship before voting or getting state benefits…
is a leader in amnesty and partnered with Ted Kennedy on the bill’s language and sponsorship…
led opposition to building the border fence….
discussed with the Dems in 2001 about leaving the GOP, then in 2004 talked with John Kerry about becoming his running mate….
These are my reasons why I could not vote for all that liberalism and still call myself a Christian and a Conservative.
HOW we vote reflects what we REALLY believe. I trust God’s sovereign hand and in standing for Truth I will not help evil. And with the view of pragmaticism that you have Aaron, Christians and Conservatives voted in TWICE the worst governor the state of CA has ever had, even out-spending Davis. With the fear of the opposition, we now have a governor who has pushed homosexuality straight into the classrooms and will raise our taxes and fees more than Davis ever did.
My main point in my other post was that at the heart of politics are values and beliefs. What we really believe is reflected in how we vote: will I stand my ground on principles or toss them ? Then what makes one conservative? Because they merely claim it? I strive to ACT according to what I believe.
I wish to not discuss with you anymore Aaron as you have been rude and insulting.
Jun 8th, 2009
Stephen Macasil
Relevent to this thread is a brief article regarding So. Cal SBC pastor Wiley Drake’s use of imprecatory prayers toward Tiller and Obama:
From the article: On a recent webcast of his daily radio talk show, Wiley Drake, former second vice-president of the SBC, called last Sunday’s murder of Tiller “an answer to prayer.” Then during an interview with Alan Colmes on Fox News Radio, Drake said he was praying the same type of “imprecatory prayer” against the president of the United States.
Article here.
Jun 8th, 2009
OverCommiTad2theWord
Tsk, tsk Fusion, ad hominem? Seriously? It appears I’m not going to be able to get through to you, but I’ll cast it out there one last time.
You keep trying to take me down rabbit trails: drug dealers, pedophile priests, prostitutes, porn films, city hall?, but I’m not going there (it’s too far outta my way).
Apparently somehow you interpret my comments to mean that I’m trying to eliminate all sin. I give you high marks for imagination.
You’re right, of course, God has given the State the authority to punish wrong doers (Rom 13:4), I know you don’t think that authority is unlimited. So where is your line?
If the State can choose one group of people to kill, in this case defenseless children in the womb. What if it chose to kill another group? Is there any level of tyranny that would justify fighting in your eyes? Just asking…
Jun 8th, 2009
Danielle V.
I am glad that Tiller is not going to be killing unborn babies anymore. Of course murder is wrong but I’m still not unhappy that Tiller is dead.
Jun 9th, 2009
Stephen Macasil
As a musician, I often read the Psalms and “sing” them to familiar tunes. Since the Psalmists themselves wrote instructions to the choirmasters to sing the lyrics to certain familiar tunes, I have biblical warrant to do the same based on the precedent in Scripture.
Here is a Psalm that I sing to a triumphal tune I’ve modified (sounds very much like “And Can It Be” at around 110bmp) that relates to the discussion in this thread.
Ps. 68:1-3
God shall arise, his enemies shall be scattered;
and those who hate him shall flee before him!
As smoke is driven away, so you shall drive them away;
as wax melts before fire,
so the wicked shall perish before God!
But the righteous shall be glad;
they shall exult before God;
they shall be jubilant with joy!
Try singing the entire Psalm…
Jun 9th, 2009
Reformed Mama
Hi John~
I was rereading your post and want to thank you for it!
You said: “Christianity is not “nice feelings about bad people”. That is a characature.Its also a very telling and seeming “prophetic” statement about the state of the Church in America. The Church of Jesus Christ declares that such abortion is murder, yet within its own walls a prolific killer maintained his occupation without excommunication. This is a telling statement on the spiritual condition of our congregations.”
So true…if only that church had, number one not given in to liberalism but instead were preaching the true gospel and had been doing what Spurgeon advises, below…things may have gone differently.
“Do not come in to weaken us, we are weak enough already. Do not come in to adulterate our purity, we have enough impurity even now. Pray that God may make you a real increase to our prayerfulness, to our holiness, to our earnestness, to our higher life, and then come and welcome, and the Lord be with you!”
But, we know our God’s plans can not be thwarted and this was His will. You are so right…it was “poetic justice” that Tiller has been stopped…
Jun 9th, 2009
Reformed Mama
Hi Stephen~
I love what you wrote about singing the Psalms! Thank you for always pointing us to Scripture, by God’s grace.
Oddly enough you and I were just talking about Tiller in the wee hours of the morning of his death, during our group fellowship time. It has been a huge burden on my heart as you know. So, yes, I do believe the righteous, again by God’s grace, are glad, I know I am!
Jun 9th, 2009
Sir Aaron
Denise:
I really don’t understand how I was rude and insulting. That certainly was not my intention.
To your question: Aaron, it would be good if you asked instead of assume about me and then try to build a strawman against my stand. I did not vote for a third party. I apologize for assuming you were true to your word. On September 10th and September 11, 2008 you made it abundantly clear that you would not vote for McCain (or Obama). You said “Weellll….LOL I’m not behind McCain/Palin for a number of reasons, not the least of which is, Palin’s a feminist and McCain leans liberal. You left several other posts along the same lines. Based on those posts, I was left with one of three conclusions. (1) You voted for a third party (since you wont support (D) or (R) candidates (2) You didn’t cast a vote for President or (3) you actually voted for McCain even after you left post after post so adamantly opposing such action. I took you for your word and figured that based upon your word that (1) was the mostly likely outcome. You say I’m wrong so (2) or (3) must therefore be true.
It defies logic how not voting for someone is voting for someone. How in the world does standing for Truth make the righteous responsible for evil?? That’s downright unbiblical as well as irrational.
It is neither illogical or irrational. Let me offer an example along similar lines: If a person witnesses a crime occuring and does absolutely nothing, is that person not responsible for the crime? Not legally, of course, but from a moral and ethical sense that persons shares some responsibility. The person wasn’t the one committing the crime but at the same time that person could have done something to prevent it, stop it, or notify somebody about it. Therefore, in some sense, that person is responsible for the crime. The same is true with voting. If a person knows that voting for a third party (or not voting at all) essentially insures an Obama victory, then it makes perfect logical sense to conclude that said person shares some responsibility for his election via the foolish decision.
Now, I think you disagree. I think th at is ok. I believe there is room for disagreement on how best to vote in these situations. I certainly understand why you would not want to vote for McCain. But you have disagreed vehemently with any Christian who has voted “pragmatically” according to your estimation, so much so, that I’d dare say you’ve practically accused your borthers and sisters of blatant disregard of Scripture in this matter. I take great offense to that. So my point wasn’t really to accuse you or blame you for Obama’s election but rather to show you that not everyone agrees with your interpretation of Scripture in this matter (in fact, the majority of Christians here and elswhere I’ve noticed you frequent disagree with you).
I wish to not discuss with you anymore Aaron as you have been rude and insulting.
I certainly can’t force you to discuss anything with me. But I’m also not going to let you hit and run. You have accused many here of failing to live and act according to your interpretation of Scripture. That is what is insulting . You’re wrong to make such accusations and I’m not going to stop holding you accountable for it because it makes you uncomfortable.
Jun 9th, 2009
Sir Aaron
Reformed Mama:
I refuse to call that place a church. Anybody can build a steeple and claim they are worshipping God. They certainly aren’t worshipping the same God that I do. Therefore, I think it is more appropriate to call them a cult. (or maybe I’m going overboard).
Good luck on your move to Kansas. You know you can always move to Houston (you’d have family here too.
Jun 9th, 2009
john
Reformed Mama:
Thanks for the encouragement. I will say though that in response to Aarons post, I speak of Tiller attending Church, as in attending an institution, my points is made regardless of whether we know who is saved and who is not. Even apostate Israel carried their tribal names regardless of their eternal election.
Thanks again
Jun 11th, 2009
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