Sola Sinner’s Prayer?
What do you think about this? I came across the website of Calvary Chapel South Bay in Gardena, CA, and I read the testimony of Steve Mays, the pastor. In his retelling of the account of his “conversion,” Pastor Steve said he was “saved” before having the Gospel explained to him.
In Romans 1, Paul says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes (1:16). The next verse says that in “it” (the Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed. The Apostle Paul goes on for four and a half chapters explaining man’s need for salvation before explaining God’s love and His eternal plan of salvation. Man’s need for salvation is met in the provision that God has made - our Lord Jesus Christ (5:1). One thing is very clear in Romans; Jesus Christ saves us from God’s wrath (5:9). Read this testimony and use it as a guide for us to discuss the biblical view of salvation.
“I was sleeping in the gutter one day and a couple by the name of Shirley and Henry came out to their car, which was parked near me as I lay in the gutter. They picked me up and took me inside their house, gave me a shower, fed me. She told me she saw Jesus in my eyes. Then she called three different organizations and one of those was the Mansion Messiah House of Calvary Chapel. She asked which one I would like to go to. I replied, ‘I don’t know, Mansion Messiah sounds good.’They took me over to Mansion Messiah. I walked in with my gun stuck in the back of my pants. Immediately, this little squirt named Orville looked right in my eyes and said, ‘Do you know Jesus?’ And I said no. And then he said, ‘Bow your head, we’re going to ask Jesus into your heart.’ And I said the sinner’s prayer after him. That happened without anyone explaining the Gospel to me.Everything suddenly clicked. God just grabbed me, reached in and burned in my heart. It was the most incredible power I have ever experienced in my life. It was a tremendous burning sensation of an inner witness. It was something of the awesomeness of God’s love. I can’t even express it.At that moment God delivered me from drugs. I flushed ten thousand dollars’ worth of drugs down the toilet that day. I have never touched any drugs since that time. I also threw my gun away in the ocean. The residents of Mansion Messiah buried my clothes, they smelled so bad. From then on, I started singing Christian songs by myself when I was just walking down the street.”
BT Question for Discussion: Is understanding the Gospel necessary in order to receive the free grace of God in salvation?
May God be glorified in our discussion!
51 Comments, Comment or Ping
Fusion!
I’ve heard of similar instances. It’s possible that he had some previous knowledge of the scripture (I think a lot of people have heard it on tv once in their lives). The question is, where is he know? Unfortunately he is calvary chapel (while I don’t want to fight a charicature) but i won’t expect a theologically explanation for a lot of what they do. So can anyone here who goes to his church tell me what you know of the man? What is his theology now? Does he preach the gospel? Who does he say Jesus is?
Mar 6th, 2008
Fusion!
And I might add, yes you do need to understand the gospel. In his case, it’s possible he heard it before and was too high to recall much of what had happened previously but now had a time to respond. By the way, why were you on his website Stephen?
Mar 6th, 2008
Melissa
My husband tells me that he never said a “sinner’s prayer”. He and God just came to a total agreement! From that moment he knew who he belonged to and never looked back. That seemed very foreign to me when he first told me. He knows now that he was chosen long before he knew who God was and that God’s timing prevails in all things–as does His providences in our lives. As I’ve grown in my own relationship, I recognize that that is exactly what it is–a relationship. Once my husband entered into relationship with Christ, the rest was history. Great topic!
Blessings,
Melissa
Mar 6th, 2008
Fusion!
Yeah, i think this one may fall in line with the whole when did you get saved question. Some of us know when it happened. Other’s are only vaguely sure. (Come on you exist, I know I’m not the only one)
Mar 6th, 2008
Travis
I have come out of calvary chapel , and this is a common thing, I know thid similiar story happened to me but I had heard the gospel growing up. But honestly I never knew the gospel or heard that God was angry at me until I became reformed in my thinking. I knew that God hated sin etc, but didnt ever think God would have poured his wrath upon me if I was unrepented.
I heard one guy at CC came to the goepel by the Spirit of God, and I dont have any problem with that, he lived in the middle of the jungle and never heard a mention of Christ but a few years after the spirit came to him he got a hold of a bible and what he had been thinking was what the bible had written in it, so when was this guy saved when the spirit moved his mind or when he read the scripture, I dont know.
I do know once you have the gospel you are either covered by Christ or you will have the wrath of God poured out on you.
Mar 6th, 2008
Ashley
Yes you have to know the gospel. How can you recieve the gospel if you don’t even know the gospel? Either he was or is decieved or he heard it sometime in his life. He made a huge mistake posting that in his testimony. Not only are Christians going to mislead more and more people into false salvation by praying a prayer but non Christians who read this may come to the conclution that they don’t need to receive gospel to be saved.
Mar 6th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Ashley, you made a good point in pointing out that repeating a prayer can produce a false conversion. I like how Dr. Morey puts it in his lecture on Charles Finney
He says that many evangelist-types consider salvation like a vending machine - you put the coins in and out comes the candy bar. Much in the same way, they teach that you just got to pray this prayer, and like the candy bar, out comes your salvation.
In the lecture, Dr. Morey recalls an evangelist that said she won 30 or 40 kids for Christ! She held up a bag of LifeSavers candy and asked the children: “Do you know what this is?” The children answered: “LifeSavers!” She said: “That’s right. And Jesus is a LifeSaver. Whoever prays this prayer with me will get a pack of LifeSavers!” The children, practically drueling for candy, all repeated the prayer - She told the story to Dr. Morey and he told her the truth, that the kids just wanted the candy!
Mar 6th, 2008
Mario
Like the post Steve! I have to go with Scripture. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation! Faith comes by hearing and that by hearing the word of God! It is not by saying some prayer!!!!I have been looking at his book choices. It is dangerous for people to have self appointed individuals attempt to teach the oracles of God.
Judging the fruit of Steve Mays in terms of the way he treats people, it is well known that if it is not Steve’s way, it’s the highway! From the accounts of individuals getting fired for not doing what Steve Mays says, to the church workers who clean his house while on the clock at the church, he loves to be served by his people. What of the stories where Steve wants Starbucks? He wants the frapuccino at his doorstep delivered, and it better be before the blasted mocha melts! One of his “pastors” recently told one on the church attendees that serves at the chuch, “do you love your pastor?” Of course the person replied yes. This pastor’s answer was, “then what’s wrong with cleaning his house?”
I know Jesus asked Peter, “Peter do you love me?” Yes three times! But Jesus did not tell Peter to clean His house! He told Peter to feed my sheep!
This is just the tip of the iceberg for what goes on out there. I would ask if this is a direct result of a misunderstanding of Scripture, but clearly, one cannot treat people in the way Steve Mays does, while preaching from the pulpit servanthood. It is clearly a twisted understanding of Scripture within the mind of Steve Mays. He who desires to be the greatest in the kingdom must be the servant of all!
You opened up a can brother Steve. Thanks for that! Those who love to Lord it over the flock must be exposed because the sheep, well, they can be very stupid.
Mar 6th, 2008
Travis
All you have to do with CC pastors and followers is put your thumb on them and apply a litle pressure, and they get stuck.
I did meet a very knowladgeable CC pastor in Denver, I made a comment about him being well spoken and he said its because Im one of the few CC pastors that finnished college or seminary.(Gino Geraci)
Like Dr.Bob says the gab and a a guitar and your in.
I also would like to know where he is at now
Mar 6th, 2008
Jon Powell
This is a great topic. Before I was reformed I was taught the ‘vending machine’ approach, but even then this felt intuitively wrong because repentance & salvation are a gift from God. As a reformer, I now understand that salvation is monergistic–100% God’s work. That being said, couldn’t God choose to save an infant or someone who may have limited or severely diminished ability to understand or even believe (a mentally retarded person)? Maybe Scripture is too silent on these outlying issues for us to make more that educated conjectures…
Mar 6th, 2008
Fusion!
Jon, that’s what John Frames holds to (and I think was misquoted by someone in *ahem another post to mean something else)The westminster confession holds to this. But still, it would seem the Word is silent on this.
Mario, thanks. I asked and it was given. Does this mean he’s a defeated believer, or not saved at all?
Mar 6th, 2008
Denise
Steve this is happening more and more frequently. It is astonishing how folks (many pastors and professors and apologists) are saying that salvation comes another way. But Scripture is clear:
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
And
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Mar 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Luk 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,
If a person doesn’t have a credible testimony of repentance of sin and turning in faith to Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation, they weren’t save according to Scripture.
Did Steve Mays ever mention getting baptized either? That is a command for all believers to obey soon after salvation.
There is but One way of justification and one way of salvation: faith in the Person and work of Christ Jesus.
Mar 7th, 2008
Mario
I cannot read what is in his heart Fusion, however, the fruit which comes out is rotten! You won’t see it when you hear him on the air, you see it when a sheep whole heartedly dives in to serve in zeal. That zeal is taken and used to the advantage of the pastor as he lords it over the flock! Eventually you hear what happened to them when they needed the pastor most. There was no one there! Memories of the one who takes off when the sheep need the shepherd most. What is that word? Hireling is what John 10 declares. You want to do for him? By all means! Just don’t dare ask him to pray for you, visit you in the hospital, or ask for an appointment. You have to earn your right to approach his greatness. What ever happened to the concept of servant leadership? I need input on these thoughts! Where are the Calvary Chapel brethren?
Mar 7th, 2008
Fusion!
Mario, sorry to say that they may not be reading this. I will say, I do hope they don’t think this is a CC bashing place. But it has to be said, a lot of members of Faith Community were CC and have no regrets. I might add, did he ever get baptized? And Mario, if push comes to shove, can you get documentation about this guy? In case someone from his church is reading this?
Mar 7th, 2008
Becky
First off, who throws guns into the ocean? That’s just silly.
Second, I am very familiar with this. I went to this church when i was younger. I don’t really remember a lot of it, and anything I do was not during the big service. If kids even went to that, I don’t remember. This was where i was NOT baptised. I said the “sinner’s prayer” while attending here when i was four (but i think my mom led me through it at home) and i was dunked in the Pacfic by a pastor (who exactly, i don’t know) when i was five. As some of you know, i was finally properly baptised last Sunday.
Of course you have to understand the gospel to be saved. Jesus said the only way is through Him. He didn’t mean just believing. Even the demons believe! Someone said to me once “i believe Jesus existed and stuff, but i don’t really care. I just want to play my guitar.” If someone thinks you don’t have to understand the gospel to be saved, then they don’t understand the Bible.
Mar 7th, 2008
Mario
I thank Steve for doing this…it lights a fire under me! Provokes me to good works! I will contact individuals who have worked for the ministry who have confronted him about his practices and have gotten fired!
You know, I am not bashing my intent is to reach those who are man pleasing and stuck as a result of the teaching they are under. I am more than willing to dialogue and be confronted by those who would think this is wrong, however, they will have to address the issue according to Scripture.
Steve’s point is accurate. How can we know that the testimony of Steve Mays is true? When Steve Mays talks about salvation, he always give the credit to Pastor Chuck.
Is his testimony true because there are 10,000 people attending the church? Does that mean God is blessing? Then he must be blessing the Muslims and Mormons as well. Look how many people they have in their churches!
Mar 7th, 2008
Fusion!
Thanks Mario. Becky, I’m sorry I wasn’t there to see you get baptized. I know you thought a lot about it. Good for you.
Mar 7th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Another gem from the Laboratory: “First off, who throws guns into the ocean? That’s just silly.”
Mar 7th, 2008
Chavez
the time has finally come for me to Say something, I attended cc for about three years I went to the school of ministry, I was Baptized, and I also served in ministry. It was one day that I came up to Pastor Steve, I introduced myself to him. The first thing out of his mouth was “what do you do for a Living? ” I did not know why he was asking me this question. I had told him I was a plumber and that is when he asked me for my personal phone #. About 4 or 5 months later he called me do to work at his house. From that time on he just kept calling for different plumbing problems along with work to be done at the church, which at first I did not mind. Here I was, in tight with the senior pastor. I was going to his house, every pastor knew me. I was doing work for almost all of them, but inside I thought the more I did, the more they would like me. I took my eyes off of Jesus and I put my eyes on man. By Gods Grace, he showed me that this was not right. I was seeking their approval and little did I know pastor steve was just using me. He would call me on weekends and ask me to leave my family to go install a faucet in his sink. He wanted it done before his wife would come home. He would throw a guilt trip on me, I finally spoke up and talked to him. He apologized to me and I told him how I felt he always wanted me to drop what I was doing to Help him, but when I needed to talk to him he would just point me to another pastor to talk to. Soon after he apologized he called again to do more work. That is when I knew it was time to go. I have not attended there for about a year maybe. They still call me for plumbing jobs. I know that God is in control and I trust in Him. Please pray for these pastors that God would do a work in there heart.
Mar 7th, 2008
Fusion!
If I recall, Bruce Wayne did in Batman Begins. A lot of movies have characters throwing guns off a pier into the ocean. It’s a thing.
Mar 7th, 2008
Mario
I thought the “more than meets the eye” phrase applied only to the Transformers.
In regard to salvation, I definitely know that the Lord rescued me when there was no one else around, however, I had been hammered with the gospel throughout my life. So I can say that my experience is validated by Romans 10 where it says that “faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of God.” Thank God that it was His will to awaken me from death! Bless His Holy Name that though deserving Hell, He violated my will, there was a divine warrant for my arrest! MMMMM Praise the Lord, that inspite of ourselves, Eternal Counsel arrests us and makes us His own possession!!!!!!!! Hallelujah What a Savior!
Mar 7th, 2008
Stacie
AMEN! Preach it Mario!
Steve, thanks for making me put on my Biblical Thought Thinking Cap… this was very beneficial for me.
Chavez, Thanks for the reminder to pray for the Lord to work in these pastors hearts. We should diligently be in prayer for all of the shepherds of God’s flock, especially those shepherds who have gone astray.
Mar 7th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
False conversions lead to an ongoing struggle with maintaining the appearance of the authenticity of a false profession. This struggle can yield a behavior of external conformity to what appears good (on the outside) while being dead in trespasses and sin (on the inside). Jesus gave the example of the outside of the cup being clean, and whitewashed tombs, to depict the solely external conformity. This reminds me of a recent discussion here on one of the BT threads where a comment by Calvin on the reprobate was momentarily drawn into the light. The comment was:
“The chosen few were saved by the operation of divine grace which cannot be challenged and cannot be earned by Man’s merits. You might have lead what you might have considered a perfectly good life that was true to God but if you were a reprobate you remained one because for all your qualities you were inherently corrupt and God would know this even if you did not. However, a reprobate by behaving decently could achieve an inner conviction of salvation.”
The objector said: “I really thought that man had absolutely no merit with respect to salvation, yet it is possible for a “reprobate” to behave “decently” to “achieve”? Wow!”
I responded and said: “You have misread Calvin. The last statement is simply saying that although a man be reprobate, he may externally conform to the behavioral climate of the elect, thus producing in him an inner conviction that he is saved. IOW, if you are reprobate, and you hang around Christians and pick up on the external appearance of holiness and “behave decently,” you may at some point actually “believe” that you are saved because of your behavior. That is why the great question has been: On what basis does God allow sinners into eternal fellowship with him? Or to put it another way, “standing before the judgment throne of God, if (hypothetical) he were to ask you if you think you should go to heaven or hell, what would your answer be?” If you answer “heaven,” and if he asks you why, how do you answer? The reprobate may obtain the self-deception that he is saved based on his behavior, thus answering God, “because I lived a good life,” or “because I behaved decently and did not sleep around or get drunk.”
So, by you concluding that Calvin was saying on the one hand that man has absolutely no merit with respect to salvation, and on the other hand said by behaving decently a reprobate may achieve salvation, you have failed to account for Calvin’s first sentence that makes “divine grace” the operative difference between the elect and the reprobate. This is the same thing that Paul said in Eph. 2:8-9 when he said:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
We cannot tell what Steve Mays’ faith is in, at least not from this snippet of his testimony. If self-deception is possible, in other words, if one can “behave decently” to the point that an inner conviction of salvation is achieved, then how can you tell the difference between an inner conviction based on self-deception, and the true full assurance of salvation promised to the elect, as taught in Scripture?
Mar 8th, 2008
Denise
Steve,
I think that the “snippet” really is his testimony though, since its on his own church website “about the pastor”. He clearly claimed to have been saved without hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which means he was not saved at that time. Was he saved later? I don’t know. Did ever get baptized as a true believer? He never says. So I can’t speak to that…just something to consider. What we can say, however, is that his conversion testimony is not a true one. Not according to Romans 10. Who does Mays give glory and credit to?
Your question is a good one. Scripture dictates the difference. How does that play out in a person’s life? First of all, a person who is self-deceived isn’t truly believing in the Truth of Scripture. That unbelief will come out in behavior in one way or another, over time. For those on the outside, it might be things that seem a little off, maybe a warning flag here or there, you know, something so subtle, that we can’t put our finger on it. Sometimes we’ll never know, other times God reveals it.
I think that a self-deceived person always has doubts, but might push them down by doing more “stuff”. A goat knows he’s not a sheep, even when he tries to mimmick one.
Those who are truly God’s will have the Holy Spirit bearing witness with ours that we are His. A person who is self-deceived is self-centered and man-centered, for the child of God loves His Truth and grows in love and praise of Christ Jesus (”He must increase, I must decrease”). A heart that truly is aquainted with the grace of God is truly humbled and never ceases to be amazed that God chose to save such a wretch as himself. A false Christian can’t and won’t do this, if you see what I mean.
1Jo 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 3:19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Mar 8th, 2008
agogley
How the heck did he start singing Christians songs to himself? Somehow he knew Christian songs?
I have some doubts about CC pastors. It’s been my unfortunate experience to be part of investigations and prosecutions of a few CC leaders for pretty sizeable frauds. I tend to be skeptical when I hear these stories because, in my experience, their behavior is extremely external.
My complaint about seeker sensitive churches has always been that they are more concern about an outward expression of faith via the sinner’s prayer or “serving” but care little about the real fruit of salvation (obedience, in particular).
I often compare the sinner’s prayer to an apology. Many of us have had the experience of being told to say “I’m sorry” even though we never meant it. If the apology doesn’t come from sincere regret then it really is a meaningless outward expression. The same is true with a sinners prayer. We can force people to say it but without true inward sincerity, it’s just a meaningless utterance. And that isn’t to say that somebody who says the sinners prayer can’t later come to a realization and acceptance, by leading of the Holy Spirit, of the truth of what they prayed. However, we ought to follow Biblical examples of evangelism rather than treating the sinner’s prayer as a mystical incantation.
Mar 8th, 2008
Becky
While one hand, it could be that anything Bruce Wayne does is the right thing to do, but he’s kinda lame as himself, and should just stay Batman all the time.
A pastor of a Bible study i used to go to told me a long story about Steve Mays being very rude and unchristlike to him. I don’t remember the story because i was having a hard time following. I just met the person and i’m like…i don’t even remember the pastor. The only adults i remember is the worship team.
I think it’s just a thing to throw guns and children into the ocean at CC South Bay.
Mar 8th, 2008
Fusion!
You would know ma’am.
Mar 8th, 2008
Travis
Being a former CC assistant pastor I know a lot of the fraud and false conversion that take place, and a lot of mystical incantations, and it is sad, but they are not all like that, but, they also cant help being like that because of thier distinctives, which are based on proof texts, it sadens me because even the greek they learn are based on thier distinctive presuppositions.
I have to say God did teach me a lot about character and what a Christians life is to be like, though my pastors teachings were off he is a man that truly loved the church and did what he could to serve them, to bad he couldnt teach us more than just Love.
Mar 8th, 2008
Travis
Here is another thing,
my assisting at the church was not prayed over and come to think about it Im not sure if the pastor was either, this is how it went,
I see the work of God in your life and agree with what you say I think you should assist (the short version)
I dont say this to gossip I want people to understand how some of the CC work, Not All!
Mar 8th, 2008
Mario
Very interesting point Steve.
“We cannot tell what Steve Mays’ faith is in, at least not from this snippet of his testimony. If self-deception is possible, in other words, if one can “behave decently” to the point that an inner conviction of salvation is achieved, then how can you tell the difference between an inner conviction based on self-deception, and the true full assurance of salvation promised to the elect, as taught in Scripture?”
It would be very difficult to tell, especially in these sorts of churches. There is a “pastor” teaching from the bible as thousands sit in the congregation. It is well known that these pastors, at least what I know of South Bay Calvary, teach on a “5th” grade level so all can understand.
He is know by his fruit. A saved person cannot but bear fruit to eternal life. From how this man has hurt the sheep, I must judge his fruits by what he does or how he treats the sheep. The fact he is “teaching” over the pulpit are not good fruits. Anyone can claim to be a “teacher” and lead others to eternal damnation.
Out of the many thousands sitting comfortably in the pews, I don’t believe every one of those will enter into the Kingdom when the roll is called up yonder. This calls for an examination of the Calvary Chapel Distinctives.
Mar 8th, 2008
mike varble
This discussion is very timely and points out a not so “kind” Calvary
“Dis-stink-tive” ie.: pastors should be served by young Ministers-in Training types! Where does this come from? Surely Jesus’ life doesn’t show this, yet the 4 CC’s I have experienced have all been run this
way, more so lately than in the ’70s.
Scripture says something about not being OverLords doesn’t it?
“Woe unto you Pastors… who fleece My sheep…”
Mar 9th, 2008
Travis
Its sad because I see my friends that are music leaders, lay persons, and pastors in CC and they get so beat up by issues that shouldnt be an issue (I realize this happens in other churches, but this blog is about CC)
please pray for these Head pastors that they would stop persicuting the church. There really isnt one specific example I can give but its just a life style of treating me and my friends like we were not on the same playing field as the Pastors, so much so that a pastor friend in N. California was told he shouldnt pastor any more(hed been doing it 1 1/2 yrs) by another pastor and that pastor took over the church, and the elders of the church that helped the church plant let it happen. This is the stupid crap that goes on here. (Again I know we are human and this stuff happens all over the place, but this blog is about CC)
Mar 9th, 2008
Fusion!
Here’s a quote from the distinctives. You can find them at
http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/ccd.htm#02
Here’s what Chuck Smith has to say about an experience he had at one of his first churches:
Because the Board made the decision, I was free to minister to both sides. The Board became the buffer. And it’s great to have a buffer like that because then people don’t polarize against you saying, “It was the pastor who decided, and I don’t agree with his decision.” The Board decided, and they became a buffer for me.
I believe that God’s model is that the pastor is ruled over by the Lord and recognized by the congregation as God’s anointed instrument to lead the church, with the Board guiding and directing. Complementing this is the role of the assisting pastors. They are there to minister to the spiritual needs of the people on a daily basis. With these components in place, there is a great form of church government where you, as the pastor, are not in the position of a hireling. Becoming a hireling is a real danger when the church is run by a Presbyterian kind of a government, and the Board is ruling over the church. The pastor is hired by the Board and can be fired by the Board in the same fashion. With that kind of rule the pastor becomes a hireling.
The same is true with congregational rule. A pastor is hired by the congregation, rather than ordained by the Lord who is the Head of the body. He’s not appointed by Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, but instead he’s elected or selected by the Board or by the congregation. Here again, the pastor becomes a hireling. I don’t believe that anyone can do his best work as a hireling.
It is my belief that everyone should be a deacon. The ministry of helps was the essence of the deacon’s function. They were to look after the facilities. They were to look after the needs of the congregation and help the sick. One of the worst things to do is to start giving titles to people in the church, especially a title that distinguishes one above another. That’s a dangerous thing.
What is interesting is that on wikipedia’s article on Calvary Chapel it had this to say:
–The Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship (CCOF) is responsible for affiliating churches with Calvary Chapel. A church that is affiliated with Calvary Chapel is often referred to as a Calvary Chapel (but not always). There are three requirements for becoming affiliated. The first is that the pastor must “embrace the characteristics of the Calvary Chapel movement as described in Calvary Chapel Distinctives.” Second, their church must have the characteristics of a church as opposed to a less developed home fellowship. Third, an applicant must be willing to spend the time to fellowship with other Calvary Chapels. [9] A notable omission of these requirements is a seminary degree.
–Others criticize the lack of accountability for pastors in the Calvary Chapel movement. Under some Calvary Chapel bylaws, a pastor cannot be voted out and is over the board of elders. Church discipline can be difficult in this situation.
Your thoughts?
Mar 9th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
I had a conversation with Keith and Lori Mcgreggor (well known Counter-Cult ministry to JW’s) on this very topic. I had dinner with them last week.
This is a division in Witness Inc. It’s known as “Exclusivism.” It’s an epistemological question really. Instead of knowing about the gospel a type of mystical experience or “crying out” confirms your salvation. When I asked Mcgreggor at what point of her experience was she saved (before, during, after?) she got upset with me and said that was irrelevant. When I explained the relevance of the concept behind Ordo Salutus she called me arrogant.
This is not a Calvin/Arminian issue at all like they try to make it. It is a pagan vs. orthodox issue. I should have thumped her harder but I was anticipating my desert.
Cauvin
Mar 9th, 2008
agogley
Travis: “This is the stupid crap that goes on here”
Agogley: I’m sorry to hear such stories (but please watch your language, Brother!).
Fusion: Do Churches actually believe in discipline anymore? Do Churches actually teach right versus wrong?
I have a friend who was raised in a Lutheran environment (but chosen not to believe). He told me stories of the rather large CC in Diamond Bar, CA. The pastor there was invited to the Lutheran school to speak to the kids there (don’t recall the whole story). The pastor was trying to encourage attendees of the Lutheran church to come to CC because they didn’t have to dress up on Sundays at CC.
I’m sure there are some good CCs somewhere out there. But the church distinctives lea
Mar 10th, 2008
agogley
leave the “franchise” open to…abuses.
Mar 10th, 2008
Fusion!
As always it would be best to get first hand testimony or solid documentation. But, to be fair, little to no churches teach or have church discipline. Unless it’s a pretty extreme case, but for the most part, it’s becoming easier to see some of the problems CC’s have. I will say all churches have problems (we are human after all) and the truth is that I have met some CC members who are wonderful people.
Mar 10th, 2008
Ana
Hevenly Father,
We exalt you above all names! May we glorify You and You only because it is You whom is in control of ALL things!
Please have mercy on Pastor Steve if these accusations are true and his heart is not right with you. I pray that you work in his heart to reveal his sin if he has offended You and the sheep you have intrusted him with. May he repent and change the way he treats his sheep.
We ALL fall short of Your glory.
Only You are able to heal the hurt that he caused on anyone.
I also asked that your Holy Spirit will work in the hearts of those that were hurt by pastor Steve and his staff, may they find “forgiveness” in their hearts and let go of their hurt and move on with their bad experience. Help us all to put on humility in our daily lives.
You allow things to happen for a purpose not by coincidence. You are Sovereign and we thank you for working in each one of us because every single one of us is being refined by the fire and thank you for that because that proves we are genuine children of Yours! Help us not to sow discord among the brethren.
In Jesus name we pray. Amen
Mar 10th, 2008
Mario
Thanks for that prayer Ana. Indeed we all do fall short, however, thank God for His Amazing Grace. Our aim here at Biblicalthought is to thrust the Truth into the hearts of believers and by grace affect those out there who do not yet believe!
The original post had to do with his testimony, but it is clear that there have been many people hurt by this pastor. Now, we could back away and keep our mouths closed or our fingers still in this case, but Scripture calls us to watch after each other and be those who contend for Truth.
Sadly, for many in Calvary Chapel, the question to ask themselves should not be how their walk is, but when it comes to self-examination, how many are actually children of God versus children of the devil?
Our goal is to declare the Truth, speaking it in love, to the end that Christians will cease from trusting in man and place their ultimate trust in the power of the living God.
When Christians actually carry their cross and follow Jesus, people will not like what we have to say. Sadly, many so called brothers have said boldly, “I don’t care what the Bible says, I know what I feel. If that is the God you serve, then, I want know part of Him.”
We do practice Doxological Apologetics, which means we do all things to the glory of God. We are sinners who fall short of His glory, however, we serve a Mega Savior, who is working in us the willing and the doing. All the glory belongs to Him alone. Jude 3, 24-25
The fact that God is sovereign does not mean we let our guards down, it means we will be held all the more accountable, He motivates us to holiness! To contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Mar 10th, 2008
Reformed Mama
Mario…how ’bout it…(to quote our beloved brother at church)!!
Mar 10th, 2008
B-radino
Ana…your prayer speaks volumes to the love and forgivness we need to exercise as believers in Christ.
Mario…love what you had to say brother. The reality of accountability is clear in the Word of God. We need to speak truth in love, not strife. As the apostle John said, we need to love our brothers, even the ones who are ignorant, prideful, etc. And sometimes, to exercise that loves, requires a bit of bite. But, the moment it becomes a battle over winning a debate versus coming to a brother in love thru the power of the Holy Spirit, then we’re in trouble. And our adversary-the devil-will creep in. And who wins in the end? Sin, the world, the flesh and the devil. Anyhow, I can see the love in what you’ve written Mario. My heart out goes to you and the rest in the name of truth and love, according to the scriptures.
Amen!
Mar 13th, 2008
Ed
I know nothing more about Calvary Chapel or Mays than that which I have read here. It would not surprise me that he came to saving faith, with little knowledge, in the way he described. The faith he described seemed to be in the PERSON Jesus rather than in things He did or how he accomplished those things.
I have noticed how often the NT describes our faith as being in Him, not in theories about Him or His works. He said we must enter the kingdom as a child. It seems a childlike faith would be confidence in a person. The faith is trust in a person not in ideas. The details of what Jesus did may be a power which makes us believe in Him. “These things were written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name”–John the apostle.
Mar 13th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Ed, you wrote: “The faith he described seemed to be in the PERSON Jesus rather than in things He did or how he accomplished those things.”
From the written testimony, it seems that his faith was in the sinner’s prayer. But what is faith in the PERSON Jesus apart from the things he did and accomplished?
You also wrote: “I have noticed how often the NT describes our faith as being in Him, not in theories about Him or His works.”
Wouldn’t this also be nothing more than a theory?
Mar 13th, 2008
Espiridion Camez
I sent an email to Steve Mays asking Him about his testimony and the problem that comes with saying, “I said the sinners prayer and no one even explained it (the gospel) to him yet”. Refering to SCRIPTURE he could see how it was a problem. He emailed me back and said:
“I will make the changes right away to my testimony and add the scriptures to back up and make sure people know it’s Christ and not me. God bless you, and again thanks for this email.
So we will see if he changes his testimony.
Hmmmm……..
Mar 14th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Espiridion,
That’s great if he changes it.
Mar 14th, 2008
Espiridion "Speedy" Camez
As I thought about it, I wondered………………………. can someone just “change” thier testimony????
Mar 15th, 2008
Denise
Espiridon, but does Mays still think he was saved outside of hearing the Gospel? For him to revise the webpage alone would compound the problem (I’ve seen this done before with an apologist who also claimed to have been saved for two years without knowing Jesus was resurrected from the dead–contrary to Rom. 10:9-10).
Making the testimony acceptable when the conversion did not take place b/c he did not hear the gospel, believe the gospel, and obey the gospel, is worse, I think, if you see what I mean.
Mar 15th, 2008
Espiridion "Speedy" Camez
Thats why I said” Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm….?
Mar 15th, 2008
Mario
Man, I hate to take this route…but I wonder if it was even Steve Mays that answered you. I’m thinking it was the person who runs the website…..
Mar 15th, 2008
Travis
This comes from a Calvary Chapel talk show, it makes me want to cry.
March 17- 21 for your chance to win a beautiful Tears of Christ necklace!
Mar 15th, 2008
Espiridion "Speedy" Camez
Hey Travis, can you provide us with a link to that talk show “love gift” offer ?
I would like to check it out if I can.
Mar 15th, 2008
Reply to “Sola Sinner’s Prayer?”