According to a few online sources (IDOTG, Sharper Iron, Apprising Ministries), Rick Warren will be a featured speaker at the 2010 Desiring God Conference. John Piper’s video about why he chose to have Douglas Wilson at last year’s conference stirred up some good discussions on whether the Federal Vision theology Wilson promotes is biblical or not. Perhaps John Piper will keep with tradition and do another series of videos about why he chose this year’s panel, including Rick Warren. If so, then perhaps it too will stir up discussion of whether or not Rick Warren’s theology and overall vision is biblical.
My first reaction proved to me that I must still have some remaining respect for John Piper because it caught me off guard. IOW, I was surprised. It didn’t seem to fit. When I read the headline I thought it was a joke, maybe an April Fool’s Day prank. Inviting Rick Warren to speak at a ministry conference supposedly under the banner of a biblically conservative organization, one that claims to champion Reformed Theology, just seems odd to me. It seems to me that any biblically conservative organization (let alone, Reformed) that loves the truth of God’s Word and is zealous for his glory would certainly keep watch over the souls of its body, and I can’t see at this moment how allowing Rick Warren the stage at its national conference is “keeping watch” over them (or the groupies worldwide).
What do you think? If you were on the board that makes the decision would you have voted for or against featuring Rick Warren at the conference?
{ 57 comments… read them below or add one }
I would have been utterly against it. What is Piper thinking? Whats next, is Piper going to sign the Manhattan Declaration. I honestly don’t know what else to say.
I pray the Lord will not allow this and that John will get some good time with his wife the next 9 months.
I would want to know why this would be an issue, I would consider it a no brain er. But, what is his speaking role? Is it on the weather?
Could this be an opportunity to see Rick in the Light of Truth?
Travis, it’s puzzling…
I suppose his speaking role would be like in years past where each speaker takes on a particular angle of the over all conference theme. But given that Rick Warren has not previously been received into the Reformed circles that Desiring God Ministries (DGM) impacts, I wonder if it will cause some to rethink whether DGM is worth promoting if they will introduce unwanted speakers to their people.
This flies on the heels of the recent announcement that Tim Keller’s church will host N. T. Wright in a couple weeks…
This is so burdensome to me. If this is true, I wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve said for a while now that Piper is a cancer in his defiant defense of X-rated Driscoll, Paul Cussing Tripp, and heretic Douglas Wilson.
Just so you know,Tricky Ricky doesn’t go anywhere to learn, but to teach and lure people away from the Truth. False teachers are not to be welcomed into a church nor offered in any way to the sheep. But hardly anyone cared when Piper offered Tripp or Wilson. After all, they have *some* truth, right? About as much as a Mormon, Roman Catholic, Buddhist, or Oneness Pentecostal.
At what point is anyone will to totally reject a man, a ministry, a church, a group? What would it take to do so?
How do they think false teachers “secretly sneak in among you”? Will they announce themselves? No they won’t. They disguise themselves cleverly as a fellow sheep and often as shepherds—until they’ve slaughtered the sheep. That’s why God commands us to be “extreme” when it comes to such things: separate completely from poisonous men. This isn’t a sandbox we’re playing in. We’re engaged in a WAR. A war for Truth.
1John 2:21.. NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. 10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
2Jo 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Also, please consider 2Cor. 6:14-18.
I can only pray God will open up the eyes of His children and give them grace to stand loyal to Christ and Christ alone. As you can tell, this has burdened my heart for quite some time. I’d like to suggest an excellent article on the topic of taking heed to what you read (since so many love Piper’s books), by A.W. Pink. I hope it will strike a chord with someone and challenge many to reconsider their compromise.
http://www.gracegems.org/Pink2/take_heed_what_you_read.htm
In Christ Alone,
Denise
PIPED PIPER JOHN INVITES RICK WARREN HERETIC TO DG 2010 !
FIRST THE CLOSE WORK WITH EMERGENT CHURCH MARK DRISCOLL FOLLOWED BY A 8 MONTH LEAVE FROM MINISTRY DUE TO ” UNNAMED PRIDE ..? ” NOW HIS DESIRING GOD CONFERENCE HAS NOTED HERETIC PROSPERITY GOSPEL MONEY HUNGRY MEGACHURCH AUTHOR RICK WARREN AS A SPEAKER. WHAT’S SAD IS SO MANY YOUTH OF TODAY PASTORS OF TOMORROW FOLLOW PIPER’S HEDONIST DOCTRINE OF PREACHING TEACHING & WRITINGS ! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH JOHN, COME BACK TO YOUR FIRST LOVE !!
MRWBBIII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmkk1XjrGw
Im surprised as well. But it seems as though the heavy hitters in modern reformed preaching take opportunities to contrast themselves.
I dont understand all the reasons behind Driscol going to Schullers Church or for Warren to attend Pipers conference. But just because I cannot see the wisdom of it now, doesnt mean its not of God.
By the way Driscol is not x-rated so get over yourself.
True men of God do things that are not always the safe route.
Especially Jesus. He sat with publicans, and Im sure that didnt have a good effect on his followers opinion of him either.
One thing is for sure….if you put a calvinist like Piper into a room of Arminians you can bet youll have some real problems in the future with a good percentage of people walking away from Arminianism.
But take an Arminian like Warren and put him in a room full of Calvinists and you need not worry much about broken ranks. It just doesnt happen. There’s alway some few who leave Calvinism but they are few and they dont do it because someone like Warren comes along.
IOW I wouldnt spend much time concerning myself that Warren is going to have a damaging effect on Pipers audience. But, most of us Im sure dont want Rick Warren the man to be liked. Thats the issue as I see it. If He’s liked then it paints our rejection of his teaching as personal bias, a kind of nit-picking spirit. Then the whole discussion begins again. But maybe thats a good thing. Maybe instead of the reformed dismissing Saddleback for poor and heretical teachings it might open dialogue where the reformed gain more of a voice among them.
Who knows all that God will do. But Im not going to worry about a bambi scaring off a room full of hunters in an NRA convention…at least thats what it appears to me.
John
It would be an extremely unwise and compromising move by Piper if such were to happen. Yet, since nothing is confirmed for now, I would keep my peace until the information is found on the DG website.
He’s a Christian who acts like one.
Warren idolizes Criswell and quotes Edwards (Calvinists), goes on CNN, Fox, NBC and stands firmly against abortion, homosexuality, etc. Also, takes no salary from Saddleback (paid his 25 years worth back to them a few years ago) and gives away 90% of his earnings.
So he prayed at Obama’s inauguration (they needed it), what else ya got against him?
Thanks John! My sentiments exactly. My Pastor (Paston Leatherman) works with an Arminian at Cal State Fullerton to do outreach to the lost. BIg Whup? Nope, my pastor talks to people and the other guy talks to people (arm wrestles!) and guess what. my pastor has had a great opportunity to reach people for the Lord.
I might add that Driscoll went outt of his way to state that he paid hiw way donw there, he asked specifically that the content not be edited (listen to Chris Roseborough’s review of Driscoll’s message. He just cheers him on, especially when he talks about sinners dying at the Crystal Cathedral!)
Well here’s the audio with John pipers backhanded compliment to Warren. The thing that stood out to me is that he intentionally calls his a pragmatic ministry, and he says he wants him to come and lay down his cards as he speaks on the issue of loving God with your mind. And in that case, I have no problem. It works for the 3 views of this or 5 views of that books, I think we who are mature should have no problem with it at a conference. http://is.gd/b8LZj
here’s the audio to defend his decision
http://www.benterry.com/?p=273
PIPED PIPER JOHN INVITES RICK WARREN HERETIC TO DG 2010
FIRST THE CLOSE WORK WITH EMERGENT CHURCH MARK DRISCOLL FOLLOWED BY A 8 MONTH LEAVE FROM MINISTRY DUE TO ” UNNAMED PRIDE ..? ” NOW HIS DESIRING GOD CONFERENCE HAS NOTED HERETIC PROSPERITY GOSPEL MONEY HUNGRY MEGACHURCH AUTHOR RICK WARREN AS A SPEAKER. WHAT’S SAD IS SO MANY YOUTH OF TODAY PASTORS OF TOMORROW FOLLOW PIPER’S HEDONIST DOCTRINE OF PREACHING TEACHING & WRITINGS ! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH JOHN, COME BACK TO YOUR FIRST LOVE !!
MRWBBIII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmkk1XjrGw
It’s a mystery indeed. Perhaps next year the featured speaker will be Brian McLaren? I mean look at the progression…Driscoll (fairly good theology but other probs)……to…….Warren (on the road to liberal Protestantism)……..to …… an emergent like McLaren (who is already there)?
Wow, was that supposed to make sense?
This is why one man is not called to lead a local body. John Piper should not be calling these types of shots, but should be consulting with a body of elders who are seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit together.
God is soveriegn, so perhaps He is preparing this time of deception to bring many under the influence of Rick Warren’s teaching. Christ did ask the question: “Will there be any of faith when I return.”
We have Christ, our one man to lead His church. Let’s be gentle as doves but wise as snakes, pray for the lost and the decieved, and trust Him alone.
There was that thing Jesus once said about unity wasn’t there, and it being a good thing… Sure there are divides that are unbridgeable, but others that really can be crossed.
Who seriously ever thought that CJ Mahaney and John MacArthur would ever stand together? Yet Together for the Gospel has a pretty positive reputation…
I will have to agree with John, Jesus did sit with the legalistic and the liberals so I will wait and see. However I dont understand why he was invited to speak at a place that holds to a worldview that a lot of us hold to, that seems to be encouraging false teaching.
Maybe we should ask his elders?
Pastor Piper is taking a break to deal with a “pride” issue…this IMHO is an example of that pride .
Maybe next year he will have Olsteen and Hinn if he does not deal with his belief that he sees the heart inspite of what the mouth says and the hand writes
I read a comment the other day that quoted Rick Warren as believing in the 5 Solas and was monergistic when it comes to salvation.
Maybe Piper is trying to get Rick to stick to that or refute it?
Do you actually think Piper doesnt see what it looks like to have Warren speak? John is a very astute individual he’s weighed the effects it will have. I dont believe for a second that JP is encouraging false teachers. I dont believe either that JP is going astray or is prideful for having Warren at the conference.
As Luther dealt with the Erasmian diatribe Luther as clearly as possible beat it down, but it only created more dialogue. It created interest in the matter. JP is not writing Luther-style rebuttals to PDL; but John Piper has been preaching against such thinking over and over again. John might be trying to recover Rick from his errors. Warren has a following, influence and a voice to Christianity in this world. Stonewalling Rick and running away from him wont recover him.
We all know that Calvin tried several times to recover Severatus before he was put to death. Times where different then, Anti-trinitarians were anathema. But today, Rick is not going to be executed, nor Brian Maclaren or Pagit. We fight not with swords and inquisitors tortures, but with confronting ideas with other ideas. I dont believe Calvin or Luther were encouraging false teachers by dialoguing with them. Luthers rebuttal was public resistance, Calvins was private recovery and public resistance.
Im not saying lets invite Maclaren or Pagitt or every open theist to a DGM conference, but instead of outright trashing Piper, we should be patient. We should not be so quick to judge Piper’s actions.
I finally saw the official post over at the DG website. I am stunned and upset by it. I know I wrote my article on the New Evangelical Calvinism, but why does Piper just have to go and prove me right? It was written so that such mistakes would not be made, not for the article to become prophecy!
First, it was Mark Driscoll, but at least he preaches the Gospel. Then came Doug Wilson, but at least his FV heresy was too nuanced. And now we have Rick Warren?! What next? Ratzlinger for DG2011?
Just FYI, here is Mike Horton’s positon on the topic (https://www.whitehorseinn.org/archives/425.html)
JOHN PIPER ON RICK WARREN DESIRING GOD 2010 SERMON JAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSmU8EcbjWk
Piper’s video-defence of Warren deconstructed:
http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2010/04/02/john-piper-promotes-rick-warren-at-desiring-god-2010/
I think my main issue is not that he invited Rick Warren to speak, Piper is right how do we decided who we hang with I dont see that as an issue, the issue really is, Is Rick Warren a believer if so what does he believe, and is this belief consistent with the belief of Pipers church?
If we can acknowledge him as brother than we cna critique his theology, if we acknowledge him to be reformed in his theology than he should speak at Pipers Conference, if he speaks at the conference he should be both a believer and reformed in his thinking (Which John says he is)
SO the question is HAS RICK CHANGED HIS THEOLOGY?
Then can someone explain to me how a Jonas Brothers concert with Rick Warren on Easter furthers the Gospel of Christ?
Rick Warren loves to be loved and is a deceiver. One should never trust in man, but always look to Scripture for wisdom.
Does anyone see a distinct difference[or no] between hosting a conference and allowing someone to speak vs. giving a spot on Sunday in the pulpit?
If having Rick Warren speak is considered an open endorsement of what he has to say, I think Piper wouldn’t have him. I dont know what the theme of the conference is, but for the most part Warren is far from the worst possible speaker to have, so long as he stays in the safe bounds of orthodoxy [but if he strays, there must be open, swift rebuttal]
Just asking.
Brother Stephen:
Thanks for joining the discussion on the Piper/Warren situation.
You wrote, “I can’t see at this moment how allowing Rick Warren the stage at its national conference is ‘keeping watch’ over them…If you were on the board that makes the decision would you have voted for or against featuring Rick Warren at the conference?”
My vote would have been against for many obvious reasons, such as, but not limited to the fact that:
Rick Warren embraces deliberate pragmatism of the worst kind; routinely misuses Scripture to cover his own ideas with a veneer of divine authority; promotes extreme ecumenism; redefines ministry in terms of social activism and accepts the worst sort of evangelistic reductionism.
As for the earlier part of your comment above, I immediately thought of Paul’s admonition to the Ephesian elders.
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers…. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears,” (Acts 20:28, 30-31).
Rick Warren speaks perverse things, he is drawing away disciples. Warren is gaining access to many more than he might otherwise have if Piper were to have taken seriously his role as an overseer. IMO, Piper’s putting Warren on the platform of DG is to disregard Paul’s admonition.
LM
Sorry for starting then abandoning this discussion (got busy). Some good points have been made so far and I hope we can begin to interact with the questions raised here soon.
I will try to reply to all soon//
**Fusion!: I don’t see your point about what pastor Leatherman does with his Arminian buddy as relevant to the issue of John Piper spreading the influence of Rick Warren and his philosophy to the Reformed community. As you know, I know pastor Leatherman personally and admire him greatly. I do not think he would invite a guest speaker who is documented by multiple reputable people as being a teacher of unsound doctrine to his church or church-sponsored conference. I may be wrong, but I’ve had great times with pastor Leatherman in the past and if I read him right then I am right on this (unless he has changed which is entirely possible).
Partnering with an Arminian for campus evangelism on a Saturday afternoon is very different than John Piper inviting Rick Warren to the DG national conference.
You mentioned the “3 views of this or 5 views of that books.” I think this is a valid point at face value. There would be no problem in collaborating with opposing views (even heretics) for the purpose of debate. But I don’t see this as being the same.
First of all, John Piper and Rick Warren are both pragmatists. It’s obvious that Warren is, and Piper has used pragmatic ethics in lieu of biblical ethics to justify his invitation to Piper. If this is the case, then there is one-view at the core, not multiple. This is why I see the error as Piper’s, not Warren’s.
Second, Piper has already affirmed Warren as being on the same page with him theologically. This means that it is highly unlikely that Piper will “put the screws” to him in an interview since he will most likely be interested in vindicating his decision to invite him. I don’t think Warren will be asked tough questions about actual events in the past such as his public lying which is documented with video, etc.
Furthermore, if it is already established that Warren lies in interviews to suit him in whatever environment he finds himself in (audio and video proof), why should we believe that he is telling the truth even if Piper questions him rightly?
**Stephen: You have made a great point. I am reminded of the great philosopher, Solomon, who wrote, “Without counsel plans fail,
but with many advisers they succeed. (Prov. 15:22)”
**Dave: You asked, “Who seriously ever thought that CJ Mahaney and John MacArthur would ever stand together?” I’m not aware of anyone who did or would have objected to the partnership you’ve mentioned. Don’t you think that the differences between Rick Warren and John Piper (and their respected works) are greater than the cessation/continuation issues that separate Mahaney & MacArthur?
**Travis: You wrote, “Jesus did sit with the legalistic and the liberals so I will wait and see.” I hear this used all the time, and I think it’s a highly abused passage. What is it supposed to mean? That because Jesus communed with sinners we can disregard any and all biblical commands that speak of consecration? I hope you don’t mean that, and I don’t think you do, but I hear it tossed around like that often. So please explain how your reference to Jesus sitting with sinners is applied to your ethics as a Christian in this situation.
Brad B,
You asked,
“Does anyone see a distinct difference[or no] between hosting a conference and allowing someone to speak vs. giving a spot on Sunday in the pulpit?”
Daniel Chew has written a helpful article on the topic. Chew wrote,
“…’secondary separation’ IS biblically mandated. There is simply no way to parse Scripture and spin it to avoid the conclusion of the plain teaching of 2 John 9-11. While we do not treat Piper as an enemy, we are to disengage with him on issues of ministry. Knowing as it is that the DG2010 conference is a Christian conference, NOT an academic forum, such an invitation is tantamount to giving Warren space at the pulpit to preach.”
You should check it out. Daniel interacts with comments and is a very nice guy -a good brother in the Lord…
Thanks Stephen, I’ll check it out…soon as it stops shakin around here…
LOL, for sure, Brad. That was one of the longest earthquakes I can remember. It just kept going… Apparently it was a M6.9 out of Baja Cal. Here in Los Angeles it was just a slow roller, a long, slow roller.
I did read Daniel’s blog post and the comments. I substantially agree. There are some things that came to mind when I considered this. BTW, I couldn’t agree with Stephen more when he said: ” This is why one man is not called to lead a local body. ” It ought to terrify any pastor to be in the position as the final authority under heaven all by himself. [It also is arrogant to think as a man he's above being deceived and doesn't *need* to be watched/cared for.]
I think here in this situation, we have two men agreeing to make a union for reasons known only to them in the first place–now they have to answer questions that ought to have been discussed/answered prior and maybe they’d have been answered to the negative.
I dont have seriously formed opinion[because I wonder about this], but I think that Rick Warren is doing God’s work in some capacity, not too unlike the Calvary Chapels, Vineyards, etc… I do think that the evangelistic effort shows that the Lord is using those ministries, but their theological distinctives are less than impressive in maturing believers. I have a hard time calling them heretics–maybe because I just dont want to go there as a layman–I’ll leave that to called/qualified men of God. [Though, I would not attend any event those ministries hold or where they were invited as contributors--and when I meet those who do, I urge them to seek out Reformed ministries/bodies. ]
Recently I was at a recording of the White Horse Inn at Biola University. In conversation with Pastor Ken Jones, he mentioned that Rick Warren has been wanting to sit in on the panel for the radio show, but has not been allowed to do so.
BRAD B
My sentiment exactly
I dont have seriously formed opinion[because I wonder about this], but I think that Rick Warren is doing God’s work in some capacity, not too unlike the Calvary Chapels, Vineyards, etc…and as far as John Piper goes, from what I’ve read and watched in the past. His convictions seems to be Holy Spirit inspired. But I am a bit perplexed because, I don’t agree with some theology from Rick Warren. And as far as the comment by Stephen M. on Pipers where we are to disengage with him on issues of ministry, Can I get specifics? Thanks Brothers for your comments.
Stephen:
Just wanted to reiterate that I appreciate your efforts in regard to Piper’s invitation to Rick Warren.
FWIW, I gave your article here an atta-boy link from my blog in my new article, What are the T4G Men For to DO?
Kind regards,
LM
Thanks, Lou.
I visited your blog today and clicked through several of your pages. Looks like good reading. I bookmarked it to return at a later date.
**Mario, very interesting point…
“**Mario, very interesting point…” Interesting, in that this is just another reason why Horton is beloved in the Reformed community.
Man this is some scary and eyeopening stuff. Man Piper what are u doing?
@Brad:
while I cannot speak for Stephen, my stand on the issue of separation is to separate in cases where ministering together will implicate you as agreeing with the action of his in inviting Warren to DG2010. We must while doing so always remember that he is a brother in sin not an enemy.
While practical steps are always applicational and thus hugely dependent on context, my opinion for now where separation is to be done are:
1) Boycott DG2010, for speakers and participants alike
2) (For pastors) No invitation of Pastor Piper to preach in the church(es) under your care.
3) No recommendation of Pastor Piper as a souce of discernment and sound judgment
Besides that, I think it is fine to take part in third-party organized events where he is present or even speaking, and of course to talk and eat with him, though of course disapproval of his actions should be conveyed.
TO DESIRING GOD 2010 RICK WARREN JOHN PIPER ATTENDEES
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcvemw_to-desiring-god-2010-rick-warren-jo_webcam
I’m shocked to hear that Pastor John Macarthur allowed Dr. Albert Mohler, a Manhatten signer, to speak at the Sheperd’s Confrence hosted by Macarthur, now we have a wolf in sheep’s clothing, Rick Warren as a featured speaker at the 2010 Desiring God Conference.
Shall I pray, Father forgive them for they know not what they doeth, or should I pray, Father please chastise John and John to make them stronger.
http://www.pccmonroe.org/2010/02.10.htm
I strongly disagree that John Piper is in sin. I submit that the second guessing of John Piper is largely due to what it makes the reformed look like. I dont believe there is a biblical leg to stand on. Yes, I know we can quote spurgeon on seperation and we can dig up some texts to side with our decision, but that doesnt place any of us as a judge over John Piper
to boycot and condemn him, and tell folks he cant discern properly.
No doubt the same argument could be raised by the Churches when the non-conformists were kicked out.
Im with John Piper. That means Im with him in his decision and I dont consider him in sin. Guilt by association is poor argument for the truth.
We cant charge Piper with sin, though we may disagree with his choice to put Rick as a speaker and with him calling Rick, a believer in the doctrines of grace, there still is no sin on his part. Maybe some one from this blog should go and listen to Rick speak, see what he has to say and make an informed decision on that.
I will throw this out there, No one here knows if Rick has changed his philosophy of ministry or specifically his stance on the doctrines of grace, unless someone supplies recent evidence that contradicts Piper give him an ear and make the judgment then, as of right now we are speculating on the “what ifs”
ill check and see if his stance on these good doctrines are the same.
@John:
how do you exegete and understand 2 Jn. 9-11?
Hi Daniel:
I read your article…and by the way great website!
I interpret the text of 2Jn just as it falls into my lap. John speaking of those who do not believe… “those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist
This verse 7 is the heart of John’s message of warning. Now, I figure you are making a determination on vs 9…”Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ…” as a proof text that Rick Warren has taught error in some form (which I agree he has) and comes to us not abiding in Christ’s teachings.
But from this text we dont have an accusation to bring against Rick Warren. The context of the warning to the elect lady is false teachers deny Christ coming in the flesh. This is in opposition to the “doctrine or teaching” =didache of Christ being both human and divine.
A denial of this “doctrine” means the teacher does not have God, meaning
God is not his Lord and Savior and he preaches with an anti-Christ spirit rather than a ’spirit of Christ’ which will not deny the person of Christ in whom the fulness of the godhead dwells bodily.
The assurance from John is that if we abide in this doctrine we have both the Father and the Son indwelling us. John 14:23.
John proceeding to application in vs 10 tells the elect lady to not receive into your house anyone who denies the “doctrine of Christ” with a further implication that to do so would make you a conspirator with that false teacher. No one born of the truth wants to partake of the evil deeds of false teachers.
But a wider context is appropriate I believe in regards to the “teaching of Christ” where all the gospel writers have given the teachings of Christ. In this case I believe it would be appropriate to refuse someone into my home who denies Christ is God, or who denies Jesus is a fulfiller of the prophetic Messiah or that he failed to rise from the dead.
So, I understand the direct context as a warning to refuse those who deny Christ has come in the flesh; but a wider application may be permitted concerning what Jesus himself taught “his doctrine” and “but I say unto you” and so forth.
The problem lay as I see it as dealing with the essentials and from John Pipers mouth, his validation to the dissenters is Rick’s approval of those essentials as he spoke of them. Substitutionary sacrifice, inerrancy of the Word, and the reformed solas and points making way for the teachings of grace.
Could there be a snake in the grass on this one? Yes, I think so. But I am willing to trust John Piper on this decision.
Thanks Daniel for the opportunity to explain myself.
John
Hello John,
thanks for explaining your understanding of 2 Jn. 9-11 and how you think it applies or doesn’t apply to the Jon Piper/ Rick Warren incident. I guess it boils down as to whether we think Rick Warren is orthodox, am I right? Would you agree with me that if John Piper were to do this with Ratzlinger aka Benedict XVI, you would agree with us that we should separate from Piper too?
With regards to Rick Warren, I would say that those of us who have researched on his teachings and practice aren’t very impressed. We do not, in light of Jas. 2, think very highly of what Pastor Bob DeWaay calls “file cabinet orthodoxy”. Rick Warren is a brilliant man, and I am sure he is likeable in person. However, based upon his works, we do not think that his beliefs are truely believed in (ie the Fiducia element is missing) but are instead purely academic. We do not therefore believe such “dead orthodoxy” exonerates him from the charge of being unorthodox in what he publicly preaches and practices.
Do get Pastor DeWaay’s book Redefining Christianity for more of that. IMO that is the best book on the topic. As for Pastor Piper, we still love him and desire the best for him, but our allegience is ultimately to God and we cannot therefore endorse him further although we still treat him as our brother.
Hi Daniel, I substantially agree with your April 7 post to me, but have a few more thoughts. Unlike other denominations, it seems to me that there are many Reformed believers who are concerned to hold a genuine systematic theology and consider it necessary to have coherency and important for unity with the historic church. This goes for the pastors/teachers and laity in the reformed bodies, but to the contrary, most of the evangelical world [including the pastors/teachers] they seem to have no real concern for coherency or connection with the historic church. Why this is I dont know but most Reformed believers that I know came out of one of the modern evangelical types of bodies where they first came to faith.
As far as separation, I will not “sit” under any non reformed teacher or pastor but require that it be one who’s been duely ordained and is under the authority of creeds/confessions and subject to discipline if necessary. In the case here with Piper, I would say he’s on the yellow flag list, Warren is on the orange flag list and the Pope on the red flag list–none of which am I prepared to call heretical on the essential doctrines, but all of which I am prepared to call incoherent in their systematics. I agree with you about challenging them to be consistent/coherent at every opportunity out of faithfulness and duty to our great Savior, Jesus, the Divine Logos. We should all strive for truth with a capital “T” in a humble yet determined tenacity because every errant thought has implications that reverberate down to the essentials–although not necessarily fatally. Thanks for your thoughts.
It’s no surprise for someone who lived 4 blocks from Piper for seven years, attended his church, was a small group leader and taught Adult Sunday School there for two years.
The man lives on other people’s praise, that’s what he is all about. I and many others who were there and left could write a large book about what goes on there. But what would be the point?
Stop worshiping Piper, MacArthur, or whoever else and look to Jesus alone. He is still building His church and the gates of hell are not prevailing against it.
Psalm 20 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
May the Lord answer you in the day of trouble; may the name of the God of Jacob defend you; may He send you help from the sanctuary, and strengthen you out of Zion; may He remember all your offerings, and accept your burnt sacrifice. Selah
May He grant you according to your heart’s desire, and fulfill all your purpose. We will rejoice in your salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners! May the Lord fulfill all your petitions.
Now I know that the Lord saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven with the saving strength of His right hand.
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses; but we will remember the name of the Lord our God. They have bowed down and fallen; but we have risen and stand upright.
Save, Lord! May the King answer us when we call.
Brad B,
You said “and the Pope on the red flag list–none of which am I prepared to call heretical on the essential doctrines, but all of which I am prepared to call incoherent in their systematics.”
Could please ellaborate on this a little? In light of the teachings of the catholic church on justification, how could you consider these teachings non-heritical?
I hate to break it to everyone, but Piper has been going down this road for a long time. He has errant beliefs of his own, including the belief that every person really knows God and has always been crying out for a savior, whether saved or unsaved. Piper also defends other heretics, is OK with believers not having to be immersed in baptism if they feel it is not right for them and their understanding of scripture, and some strange ideas about “future grace”. Now, he is much more orthodox than many but he is still in grave error on a lot of things, including now his acceptance of false teacher Rick Warren. Let us hope he repents of this and his other errors and proves to be true, otherwise we must reject him for compromise and error.
Hey Stephen, thank you very much for posting this, and to several of you who can see through Piper’s clever wording and false teaching. I pray that many more see through him, especially now that he has shown himself to be a part of the one-world-religion group. My first introduction to his false teaching was his book on missions, where he twists several passages, and avoids the clear-cut and repeated message of Jesus in the gospels about the cost of discipleship and the gate and way to Heaven through Him being narrow.
I’m praying more people will pull away from smooth-talking smart-sounding ‘theosophy’ and spend more time in God’s Word themselves, and double-checking and graciously confronting all they see and hear, so we – as a body – can root out the wolves that have snuck in unnoticed. I also want people to see through the smooth false teachers that associate themselves with Piper, including the ‘false apostles’ like in the ‘Sovereign Grace movement. Because, as diligent Bible students know, it’s as important what teachers say AND what they DON’T say. Lessening any of God’s Word, commands, and message makes a teacher least in the Kingdom of Heaven, though God can tell who is doing it intentionally and who is still growing. We also need to learn that same discernment, so we can see who is teaching falsely intentionally, and who just needs gracious challenges and corrections so they can teach JESUS’ message more clearly! ~ Let’s keep growing in hunger and thirst for God’s Word, humble obedience to Him, and in boldness and clarity in effectively communicating Jesus’ message and truth to the lost and deceived around us! ~ a servant/life-slave of Jesus, SH
I am suprised at the amount of men and woman prepared to turn their backs on John Piper so easy (even calling for seperation), I am grieved at the lack of kindness and love that flows. yet we are quick to justify our our hard hearts, knowledge puffs up but love edifies. can you truly judge the decisions of John Piper inviting rick warren, in such a short time, that it has been.
Let us rethink our motives. wear out your knees in prayer for the man, before ever rejecting a brother so easily.
In Christ
Luke
Prayer request…
One of my boys went in for surgery yesterday and the doctor said things went well. Today in the morning he was bleeding a lot and they had to go back in and cauterize the surgical site. The doctor said that things went well again. He seems to be more uncomfortable today than yesterday and he is running a fever.
Please pray that he would heal quickly and that the pain would go away. More importantly that we would be able to share the Gospel with those we come into contact with through this experience. He will be there for about 5 days now. Pray that my wife and I would display the grace of God and those around would see it and want to know more.
@Luke:
I am saddened that you are ignoring the plain teaching of Scripture regarding the doctrine of separation in favor of false love for John Piper that is not in accord with Scripture, plus attacking the heart motives of those who call for biblical fidelity to the commands of God in this regard. Please repent of your judgmental attitude towards us and seek the heart of God in His Word regarding the doctrine of separation on this issue.
@Glen:
may God indeed heal your son and that the pain would go away soon. May our Lord also grant you and your wife His love and grace to be a witness wherever you are.
@Steven:
you need more than guilt by association tactics to say that Piper is “part of the one-world religion group”, and substantiation of Piper’s false teachings.
Brothers & Sisters please go and read Acts 20:24-36. May the Lord grant us all guidance through the HOLY SPIRIT! In JESUS Name, amen.
Stephen,
Thank you for posting this dialogue, as surely it needs to be addressed. It appears that many in the Reformed circles are reacting negatively to this decision, namely, that Warren does not deny being a Calvinist, yet does not appear to be based on his theology and methodology. We must also understand that this is a conference, with the focus on the glory of God and the life of the mind. Piper even said that Warren was a pragmatist, and disagreed, but wants evangelicalism to see how his mind and methodology compels him to do great work for the kingdom and this world. Many are judging Rick Warren, yet we must look at our lives and ask ‘what have we done’?