More Mormon Madness
We had a good time last night at the Wednesday Night Apologetics Class. Glenn Hendrickson gave a lecture on Mormonism, and lo and behold, Mormon’s showed up! There were four Mormon Elders in attendance, and after the lecture they approached the stage and began to engage Glenn in “conversation.”
So, we went up there and added to the small crowd. TJ had a good idea. He suggested rather than crowding the stage, we should move the discussion to the floor, setting up chairs and all that. So we did it. We set up chairs in a circular format and began chopping it up with ‘em.
For those who have interacted with Mormons before, the night presented nothing new or interesting. As usual, the Mormons persistently fired off a series of unrelated and often times irrelevant issues and questions; one after the other. And rather than listening to the answer, their minds were in the process of thinking of the next question to ask or next objection to raise.
Of course this can sometimes get frustrating real fast. But we stuck it out, for a couple of hours at least. Pastor Glenn Leatherman, Glenn Hendrickson, Henry, TJ, Tad, Reformed Mama’s daughter (Reformed Daughter), a couple of onlookers from the class, my wife, and me (that’s all I can remember now), joined the four Mormons and patiently witnessed their extreme rabbitishedness as they attempted to draw us into dark holes a couple of hundred times or so. Despite the temptation to follow, Dr. Morey’s warnings continually rang through my head, “Don’t follow rabbits into dark holes. There’s nothing good down there!”
So, with elongated neck I observed and discerned where the discussion was heading, and began to head them off at the pass. At one point, I had to aggressively stop and back one of the Mormons up who wouldn’t shut up. I told him, “Your problem is that you think parochially.” He replied, “Why do you have to use big words, am I supposed to be impressed at your big words, what does that mean?” I calmly answered and brought it down to street level, “It means you think like a little kid.” He responded, “Oh, so now you’re going to insult me?” Calmly, I replied, “It’s not an insult. This may be the best thing that has ever happened to you; that you realize that you have the mind of a child.” For about five or six seconds the empty look in his eyes revealed his true self and I was praying for the Holy Spirit to bring about the conviction of sin in order for him to embrace the Christ revealed in Scripture as his only hope.
But his enslavement to his father the devil and his bondage to sin had not been unfettered by the Sovereign God who alone can do that, and he continued gnawing on carrots asking, “What’s up, doc?” I thought to myself, oh great, the rabbit is back. I made eye contact with my wife who was seated behind the Mormons and she just looked back sadly shaking her head. She’s always in the background praying for me and whoever I’m witnessing to whenever I’m engaged in such discussions.
Anyhow, the evening ended where it always ends, discussing the Priesthood etc. But I wanted to draw your attention to a piece written by Jon Powell titled “Mormonism Answers Twenty Questions.” In light of the death of the Mormon false prophet Gordon B. Hinckley last month, the suspension of Mitt Romney’s Presidential campaign today, and Glenn Hendrickson’s short presentation on Mormonism and the fiasco that followed, “Mormonism Answers Twenty Questions” by Jon Powell should be a good little read. Here’s some highlight’s from Jon’s piece:
Cultists have been trying to slide in under the ‘Christian’ label since the beginning of time, but the discerning eye will detect that cultic truth is quite far from the orthodox doctrines of Biblical Christianity. Biblical Christianity uses the Bible as its ultimate authority, and will not tolerate extra-Biblical, contradictory so-called Scriptures, special revelations or faulty prophets.
The full piece is in the BT Exclusives and can be accessed by clicking here.
28 Comments, Comment or Ping
Mario
Very exciting! Would have loved to have been there! Very good stuff! May the Lord reveal Himself to these Mormons!
Feb 7th, 2008
Reformed Mama
We missed you Mario!
Feb 7th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Mario, yes, we did miss you bro! A couple of people asked for you. Some younger guys wanted to ask you some questions about the sovereignty of God.
Feb 7th, 2008
Dr. Morey
I remember the night I finished my book, How To Witness to Mormons. A local Baptist Pastor called and told me that he had three Mormon missionaries coming to his house that night and could I help him out. I told him that just finished a manuscript on how to witness to LDS and would like to try out the material on the missionaries. He readily agreed.
Two of the LDS boys were from Utah and were from Mormon families. The third one was a convert from PA who had been raised a Methodist.
To do the research for my book I had attended many ex-LDS conferences and took surveys to see what arguments worked best to refute LDS. But I discovered that the “Walter Martin” approach of a point by point refutation did not produce many converts.
The vast majority of ex-LDS people told me that they came out when they realized that J. Smith was a false prophet. Period. The only issue that produced many converts was the authority issue. Joseph Smith was a prophet, a liar or a nut.
I took the manuscript with me to the pastor’s house. I told the boys, “I have your missionary handbook with me and thus we do not need to go through their memorized testimony. They did not believe me until I showed it to them. One of them tried to grab it saying that I was not allowed to have it. I put it back into my brief case.
I laid the cards on the table: There is only one issue that is so important that nothing else mattered. Was Smith a true or false prophet?
I took out the B of M, Doctrine and Covenants, Bk of Abra, Pearl of Great Price, Articles of Faith and pointed to the Journal of Discourses on a table.
I used the following syllogism:
1. A false prophet gives false prophecies.
2. Joseph Smith gave false prophecies.
3. Therefore He was a false prophet.
They tried to escape down rabbit holes, but I yanked them out each time and stuck to the issue of JS’s prophecies. After three hours, the older boy said, “Well, I must admit that JS did give false prophecies. But my parents would kill me is I left the church.” The Methodist convert announced that he now believed that he had been deceived by the LDSW missionaries and JS was a false prophet. The third guy said, “I don’t care if you showed me a hundred false prophecies of JS. I still believe he was a prophet.”
The Ex-Methodist asked us to drive him home as he did want anything to do with the Mormons. The pastor and I had him accept Christ as his prophet, priest, and king and renounce the LDS as a false cult. We took him home that night.
He did leave the LDS and became a Christian. About six months later he called and told me that the doctors had discovered that he had cancer. He died in peace and assurance three months later.
His testimony was that he had ready to argue all kinds of issues with us but he was not ready to deal with the false prophecies of Smith. The eight false prophecies I chose for the book were so clear that they could not be refuted.
This is why I never spend time arguing baptism, temples, priesthoods, or a thousand non-essential issues. I go for the throat of the cultist by dealing with his authority.
This same approach works on all the cults. During one apologetics tour of the Virgin Islands, I had a debate with a leading SDA leader on St. Thomas. He was ready to argue about the soul, hell, etc. But the false prophecies of White knocked him out of the SDA. He in turned took out 14 men from the SDAs. A big outcry went up that I had bewitched them. I was speaking on the false prophecies of White on the local Christian radio station. But within one week the SDAs purchased the station and I was thrown off. Money talks and big money talks big.
Let what happened Wednesday open the eyes of the saints to see how to witness to LDS and the eyes of the LDS that Smith was a false prophet. Amen!
Feb 7th, 2008
Mario
I miss you guys! My heart is there with you! I must finish well with this degree program. Appreciate your prayers. You are in mine! We will talk soon! It fires me up to see how the Lord is working through the ministry!
Big hello and hugs to you all! Dr. Bob, Stephen, TJ, Darron, Tad, well, the whole bunch…..Let’s hit up the chicken and waffles one of these days! Roscoes that is! http://www.roscoeschickenandwaffles.com/
Feb 8th, 2008
agogley
What a testimony. I wish I could be there with you guys!
Feb 8th, 2008
Glenn Hendrickson
Thanks for the blurb on my lesson Stephen! I was so excited to see LDS missionaries there on Wednesday night! I really felt for the one sitting next to me in our discussion afterwards. The guy honestly did not know who his god was. He agreed with me that there was one true God. But in LDS theology the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are each a separate god. My question was simple enough: which one is the “One true God?” He would not answer my question! Personally I know he knew what I was asking, and I hope that I’ll get a chance to talk more with him about who God really is.
Thanks for coming and thanks for your prayers everyone! To God be the glory!
Feb 8th, 2008
Becky
I never heard that story before, Dr. Bob. Real life application of the apologetic methods i hear of is what drives my hope. Of course my hope is in Christ and that God can change any heart, but it’s hard when you see so many people following a false god. I often feel they are all headed straight for hell, that there is no hope, so i am happy when i see discussions actually working. It is helpful to see fruits of the labor once in a while, to know our work isn’t in vain. Even though i know it is a command and we should trust and do it no matter what.
Glenn, good job Wednesday! It sounds like the discussion after went well.
Feb 8th, 2008
Seraphim
Didn’t see a place to leave a comment about the Eastern Orthodox Book.
So I’ll leave one here. Wonder if you’ll delete it?
C. S. Lewis observed:
“It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men’s hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense….
…When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian”
(Taken from Mere Christianity)
Feb 8th, 2008
Travis
As I finally had a chance to sit and think through a couple things this was what i remebered, you have to get to the root of the problem and destroy thier system, and with muslims and mormons there system starts with a false prophet.
Feb 8th, 2008
Mario
The Lord blessed the message Glenn! Love hearing about the fruit of it! Keep pressing on hermano!
Feb 8th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
“Seraphim” quoted C.S. Lewis saying, “We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge.”
Lewis was wrong. We are commanded to judge. See John 7:24. Jesus said “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
Jesus also said, “Beware of false prophets.”
Question for “Seraphim:” How do you beware of false prophets without judging them to be false?
Feb 8th, 2008
OvercommiTad2theWord
Seraphim-
Aren’t “wicked arrogance” & “bad Christian” both judgements?
Feb 8th, 2008
Glenn Hendrickson
is it just me or did the blog article disappear?
glenn
Feb 9th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Glenn, it disappeared. I’m looking into it. I did something different with this post to make it “look” different, maybe that blew it out? Trying to recover it!
Feb 9th, 2008
Reformed Mama
Glenn~
Thank you for Wednesday! You did an excellent teaching on Mormonism. Some of it was new to me and my family. We appreciate your work and ministry and the respect with which you treated the Mormon elders.
Part 2???
Stephen(Skull)~I like the old “look” better…xo!
Seraphim~
Why would we delete your comment? We welcome the Orthodox to come here and talk with us. What about what Stephen and OvercommiTad had to say to you?
One thing the Orthodox do not seem to grasp is that while we enjoy our commentaries and respect our authors and our courageous Reformers, we do not hold them up as our final authority…for they are only men. Only the Word of God holds that place. Therefore on this blog you will never see us have that “aha” moment when you put up this or that quote by this or that guy!
EASTERN ORTHODOX IN THE O.C.~
As you have read in this post we had a teaching and a discussion with 4 Mormon elders. We spent hours with them and they were treated with respect. We will do the same with you…so come out, come out wherever you are! Come to the Wednesday night apologetics class…we’d love to meet you. Go to http://www.faithdefenders.com/ for info!
Feb 9th, 2008
Dr. Morey
First, I want to thank Glen for giving a great lecture. I knew he would do a good job and that is why I asked him to do it.
Second, in one sense EO and LDS has some affinity in that they both believe in deification. But the EOs like Perry have been a great disappointment. Instead of debating the issues such as the origin, nature, means, and history of the idea of apotheosis, they focus on logically irrelevant things like typos. It reminds me of Muslim apologists who, instead of dealing with my arguments, focused on whether the Hadith said “thigh” or “thing.” Even when I proved my edition of the Hadith had “thing,” they just changed to another irrelevant issue. I ask those who blog on this site to ignore the rabbit trails of EOs. They are a waste of time and energy.
Third, which of the eight false prophecies of Smith do you think is a slam dunk?
Feb 11th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Dr. Morey,
You asked: “which of the eight false prophecies of Smith do you think is a slam dunk?”
If I were to pick one, it would be Smith’s false prophecy that the second-coming of Christ would be in 1890-91. The funny thing is that Miller predicted the second-coming would be april 3, 1843, and when that day came and went without the second-coming, Smith mocked Miller as a “false prophet!” Now we do the same. Joseph Smith: false prophet.
Feb 11th, 2008
Tom R.
Mr. Macasil’s favorite prophecy from Mr. Smith is one that can be fulfilled — the Journal of Discources (in Dr. Morey’s book, “How To Answer A Mormon”) says that [a] Jesus would not return {{{until}}} 1892, i.e. > or = 1892. In “History of the Church,” volume 2, page 182 Mr. Smith says that he expected that [a] Jesus would return in or before 1891.
(The LDS say that the JoD was not published by their church, so they virtually ignore it when it discusses Mr. Young’s dogmas.)
_ _ _ Perhaps a more effective pebble in the shoe is Mormon deception concerning Polygamy (prophecy in the sense of dogma). I read that the leaders were practicing it from 1835 – 1876. They deleted, during 1876, section 101 from the original edition of “Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints” which was published in 1835. It was endorsed by Joseph Smith, Jun. on the title page
(which appeared in the book from David A. Reed & John R. Farkas, entitled “How To Rescue Your Loved One From Mormonism” © 1994 by Baker Book House).
Brigham Young & the other 11 Apostles of that church said that it was inspired by [a] God
(confer “Explanatory Introduction” on the Mormon website @ http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/introduction ).
A Mormon BYU/ FARMS (Foundation for Ancient Research & Mormon Studies) apologist retorted to Richard D. Baer, a former LDS priest, that Mr. Smith was not presiding at the church officers’ meeting when it was included in the D. & C.
(confer the Mormon site “Scholarly Historical Information Exchange for Latter-Day Saints” @ http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/Tvedtnes.htm ).
How could Mr. Smith add, during 1843, section 132 that mandated faifulness to the law of Plural Marriage without deleting section 101?
Why did Mr. Young, who died in 1877, take so long to delete it?
Answer: It’s good to be the king who gets girls, gold & glory.
Feb 15th, 2008
Tom R.
The BYU apologist’s comment is found near the bottom of the page @ “p. 41″/ item 45.
Feb 15th, 2008
Tom R.
i.e., p. 41 .
Feb 15th, 2008
Tom R.
Was church-President Young violating D. & C. 132:6? It says,
“And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant [Plural Marriage], …; he that receiveth a fullness thereof [= a polygamist] must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
Irenically speaking, Mr. Young, who divorces all of his wives when an ex-wife sued for alimony, could’ve passed them along to other care-givers.
Feb 15th, 2008
Tom R.
Oops — I forgot to say,
D. & C. 101 mandated that married Mormons should practice monogamy.
Feb 15th, 2008
Tom R.
Doctrine & Covenants 101:4 (A.D. 1835) said, “… we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again …”
(reported by R.D. Baer’s “Letter To Family & Friends” which seem to be the same as that which appears @
http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/Baerrsns.htm ).
The word “believe” appears to be a way to escape my assertion that they mandated monogamy.
However, the appended Testimony of the Twelve Apostles says that it is “the book of the Lord’s commandments,” and, “these commandments were given by inspiration of God”
(found on the church’s website’s “Explanatory Introduction” @ http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/introduction ).
Verse 4 is the Conference’s considered opinion. Even if the Mormon God did not change his mind, this demonstrates the fallibility of the leaders.
Feb 15th, 2008
Tom R.
Verse 4 also says that the reason that they were to practice monogamy was to avoid being accused of “fornication” and “polygamy.”
They were not being honest with the populace that they wanted to supplant.
The LDS boasted that they would acquire the Missourians’ land by purchase if convenient or by force if necessary.
(-Gordon H. Fraser, “Is Mormonism Christian?” which Walter Martin recommended, © 1957 … ‘77, by the Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, p. 183.)
Feb 16th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Tom, do not post anymore on this thread unless someone is willing to interact with you. If I become persuaded that you are sidebar trolling, I will block you from the site.
Thank you.
Feb 16th, 2008
The work and the glory
Mormons believe that authentic Christianity vanished a century after Jesus and was restored only through Joseph Smith. Considered a prophet by Mormons, Smith revised— and in his view corrected— large sections of the Bible in the 19th century. The Mormon scriptures include the Old and New Testaments, but also include books containing Smith’s revelations.
Mar 23rd, 2008
Travis
What makes a prophet a prophet?
Can we prove Joseph Smith saw the scrolls and what he saw was interpreted correctly, and was actually from God?
Mar 24th, 2008
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