God’s Elect: A Testimony From Thursday Nights!
In our study recently on Thursday nights, a sister raised a question as we looked into the call of God. As we read chapter 10 of Studies in the Atonement by Dr. Robert Morey, the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 1:9 declares that God “called us into fellowship with His Son.” Christians understand the term “calling” as it relates to those in union with Messiah. We began to look at the distinctions between two different types of calling. This led us into a discussion between the Gospel Call and the Effectual Call.
In our reading we found that the Gospel Call and Effectual Call are not one and the same and are not to be confused with each other. To the average evangelical believer, this is something unheard of!
We learned that the Gospel Call is universal and general given to all sinners, while the Effectual Call is particular and special because it is given only to the elect. The Gospel Call is outward and comes to all sinners, while the effectual call is inward and subjective. The Gospel call summons all sinners everywhere to repent and turn to God through His Son Jesus Christ, while the Effectual Call is God’s supernatural act in which He brings sinners into salvation. It can be said that sinners are “called” out of sin and into salvation. The Gospel cal can be rejected or resisted, while God’s Effectual Call is irresistible, and immutable. The Effectual Call of God will bring those for whom Christ has died, into this amazing grace. The Gospel Call is given by man through preaching and teaching the Word of God, while the Effectual Call comes from God the Father according to His divine purpose.
As we looked into these distinctions, our sister asked, “what does the word elect mean?” Understanding that this Word is usually misunderstood or altogether “glossed over,” to quote Pastor Chuck, we began to explain what the Word “elect” meant. We went on to explain that the word means “chosen ones” or those particularly chosen by God. We took the study over to Ephesians chapter 1 to see Paul’s explanation of the spiritual blessings the “chosen ones” have in Christ. Immediately phrases like “chose us in Him,” jumped out at her. It seemed to be almost too much for her.
We attempted to explain the fact that Christ came for His elect at the right time and did not come to make salvation possible, but made it certain! He accomplished salvation on the cross. We went into that fact that Scripture from beginning to end points humanity to the Messiah who is the second person of the Holy Trinity. God the Father planned in eternity, God the Son accomplished salvation in real time history, and the Holy Spirit is actively saving the elect. For an instant she apprehended the fact that Adam and Eve and the Old Testament saints looked forward toward the cross and the coming of the Son of God. At the right time Messiah came and impacted the history of man here on earth forever. We sat and meditated on the fact that we are here on this side of history and instead of looking forward to the coming of Messiah, we look back to the perfect work of Messiah and have the testimony of what our Great Savior has accomplished for us! He has come and has called us, His elect people. We who are in Christ today, are living examples and testimonies that the Triune God of Scripture is today still applying His salvation to lost sinners! The elect are those who were included in the sovereign plan of God before the foundation of the world! Those who have passed and are now in glory, we who are alive and remain doing His will, and those yet to be born who by grace will also be saved!
It was a great blessing. She went on to say that she has been asking the Lord to cause her to go deeper in her studies but she did not think it would be this deep. God is doing great things through Studies In the Atonement! You are welcome to join us in the city of Carson on Thursday nights! To God alone be the glory!
37 Comments, Comment or Ping
Reformed Mama
As always Mario…you have blessed us with another very clear explanation of a basic yet often overlooked Biblical concept…the concept of Gospel call/Effectual call.
It is edifying to hear of the good fruit of Thursday night studies. May our Lord continue to bless those times of fellowship and study!
God’s grace…
Jun 7th, 2008
Travis
My wife and I just started to go through this book together. What chapter will you be on next week?
we will try and catch up.
keep up the good work
Jun 7th, 2008
Johnny B
That’s good to hear, it’s a blessing to see or hear about someone, having a greater revelation of God’s sovereignty.
The reason people that don’t understand the doctines of grace, think that they cancel out the need for evangelism. Is because they don’t understand that the Gospel much go out, so that they are judged by it and for not obeying the Gospel.
Jun 7th, 2008
DS
In search of a church and finding one to check out recently was great, but wanting to dig deeper in the word I just recently went their men’s bible study to see the heart and soul of the church. Their topic of study was on the attributes of God. The book that is being used is “The Knowlegde of the Holy” A.W. Tozer, the chapter they were on and was being discussed was entitled “The Divine Omniscience”.
So after the study was over I went up to the assistant paster, looking for his thoughts on election and he insisted after many many years of study that there is a way to have an coherent acknowledgement betweem Calvinism and Armenianism. When asked about his thoughts on being chosen “Calvinism” his comment was that it should actually be and is only 4 points Calvinism, he continued to say that he did not agree with the understanding of election to salvation for some and that God chooses others for hell. The chaper alone is clear if God is omniscient then we have been drawn to him by the Holy Spirit, thus chosen.
My question is why is it so hard for soldiers of God to accept that we are chosen? Why is it so hard to draw a line in the sand?
Most of all, I pray that we do as the sciptures tell us to do 1 Corthians 4:6. “do not exceed what is written”
Jun 7th, 2008
Glen
Mario
I really like what you said here “Christ came for His elect at the right time and did not come to make salvation possible, but made it certain!” That is so true!
Would you please expand on the difference between the Gospel Call and the Effectual Call and provide Scripture references for each? I would like to understand better what you were saying.
In Christ
Jun 7th, 2008
Tom N-U
Mario -
Please let me know where & when meet on Thurs. First time I’ve heard things explained as 2 calls. I’ve enjoyed & have been edified by reading these posts over the past few weeks. Let’s talk.
Grace, peace & mercy be yours in Christ Jesus our LORD
Tom
[TOM, YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS WILL BE FORWARDED TO MARIO. - MODERATOR]
Jun 7th, 2008
the BOC
DS said:
“My question is why is it so hard for soldiers of God to accept that we are chosen? Why is it so hard to draw a line in the sand?”
Jesus said:
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
The BOC says:
“Gentiles are called–Israel is chosen.”
Arrogance will remove you from the vine.
Shalom!!
Jun 7th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
BOC,
Which Israel?
Jun 7th, 2008
the BOC
Stephen-
Stephen said:
“Which Israel?”
There is more than one Israel?
Jun 8th, 2008
DS
The paster said when refering to Romans 9 one I love one I hate this is about the election of Israel, not at about heaven or hell. He continued to say there are five types of election refered to in the bible.
Jun 8th, 2008
Mario Herrera
Glen,
I will do this later this evenging. I am willing to chat on the phone with you. Email me at readytoanswer@hotmail.com.
Tom, we’ll get in touch and you are welcome to come down and join the study.
Grace and peace to the brothers and sisters out there!
Jun 8th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
The BOC asked: “There is more than one Israel?”
In asking “which Israel,” I was asking if you were referring to Physical or Spiritual Israel.
Jun 8th, 2008
Brotha Mike
Super Mario,
Wow God is good! I was just talking wit a semi-pelagianist brother about this very thing. I did not know how to explain the Gospel Call and the Effectual Call, because I always believed in one call. This totally clears up a lot of confusion. Some verses I forgot to look at:
1 Peter 2:9?But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.?1 Peter 2:8-10 (in Context) 1 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 17:14?They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
This passage from Revelation 17 explicitly shows readers that HIS called are his chosen and will continue to be HIS faithful followers!! How can semi-pelagianist or Arminians get this point confused?
Because they deny that God has an elect, which as Mario confirmed from Ephesians 1:4 “The elect are those who were included in the sovereign plan of God before the foundation of the world!”
Thanks for the explination Mario! I never thought about the differences between the Effectual Call and the Gospel Call.
Jun 8th, 2008
Brotha Mike
DS said:
“My question is why is it so hard for soldiers of God to accept that we are chosen? Why is it so hard to draw a line in the sand?”
Well DS soldiers of God sometimes have a disease where they sound like frogs when they hear the word of God, but instead of obeying it they say “ya, but” just like a frog “rip it, rip it”. But seriously, in my experience many brothers don’t like the doctrine of sovereign grace because it does not make they feel good.
Even though the Bible clearly states that God “will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (Rom. 9:14)
They say Ya, but I have a lot of family and friends who are not believers! But what about the Scriptures!! Noah probably had neighbors and friends who died in the flood, yet God chose him. Lot too, yet God sovereignty took him out of Sodom & Gomorra before it was destroyed.
Or ya, but the God I know is a God of love who would give humans a free choice (which totally denies the doctrine of Total Depravity) And also brings up the question, which God do they know? Because it is certainly not the God written in Scripture
Or the one I love the most ya, but what about 2 Peter 2:9 God is “not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” SEE, SEE, God wants ALL, SEE!!! they will throw this in your face 9 times out of 10! But what does the verse say?
Proper exegesis would indicate that Peter is writing to believers, and the entire verse from 2Peter 2:9 states
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
Who is he patient with? . . . you, and who is the you that Peter talking with? . . . BELIVERS of course! Therefore God does not want, and will not allow any of His elect to parish, but everyone that He has Effectually called (thanks Mario) to come to true repentance. That’s how Dr. Morey explained it to us in the college group.
Hopefully this helps, but watch out for other verses that Arminians confuse with in proper hermeneutics, and try to buy and read the book
“Because you are not able” by Gabriel Carlin. This book really helps see the gigantic gap between Calvinism and Arminianism.
Bless God Bro,
Mike
Jun 8th, 2008
Mario
THE BOC,
Can you explain how ignorance removes you from the vine?
Jun 8th, 2008
Brad B
DS, my advice to you is keep looking. You seem to have encountered one who’s unqualified to be teaching the meat of the word.
Brad B
Jun 8th, 2008
the BOC
Stephen said-
“In asking “which Israel,” I was asking if you were referring to Physical or Spiritual Israel.”
You, I believe, are referring to “replacement theology” which is a doctrine straight from the pits of hell. There is only one Israel, physical. There is no spiritual Israel.
Jun 8th, 2008
the BOC
Mario-
I said “Arrogance will remove you from the vine.” Those are my words.
Romans 11:20 says it better- “don’t be arrogant, be afraid.
Seems where Israel is concerned, the church is very arrogant. She has placed herself above Israel, failing to realize the necessity to provoke them to jealousy. Jesus ain’t coming back until Israel accepts him as Messiah. And the way she does it runs them further away. Eventually all of Israel will accept him–when will the church wake up to her responsibility?
Jun 8th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
I reject replacement theology, BOC. But rather than just firing off mere cliche’s, how about some actual intelligent biblical discussion?
Let’s start with this:
“Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” - Gal. 3:7-9 (esv)
and:
“For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.” - Rom. 2:28-29 (esv)
These passages seem to indicate that there is an “Israel” within “Israel.” There are many more, but this should suffice.
Jun 8th, 2008
the BOC
Stephen-
The first scripture you speak of God tells Abraham “through you all nations will be blessed.” The ultimate blessing being Yeshua our Messiah.
The second, the word “inwardly” means secret, hidden. Is that spiritual or physical. The bible isn’t clear. Spiritual things are unseen, but so is our genetic make up. Is Paul talking about genetics? I don’t know and neither do you. We can only assume what he was talking about and I guess that depends on whose interpretation you choose to believe.
Jun 8th, 2008
Johnny B
General Call
Isaiah 45:22 “”Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”
Matthew 11:28-29 “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”
Mark 16:15-16 ” And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
Luke 24:47 “and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
John 16:7-8 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”
Acts 17:30 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,”
The call goes out, do all respond, as we can see, no. Here’s a Scripture, where the general call went out and the elect responded.
Acts 13:42, 44-45, 48 “So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath…………… On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul………….. Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
The word went out but only the elect, responded, effectual calling. Only those that are called, believed. You can use Acts 13:48 to interpret, Matthew 22:14 “For many are called (by the Gospel), but few are chosen (to eternal life).” Those that are chosen, appointed, called, elect, etc, will believe, unto eternal life. Those that don’t, Mark 16:16 “but he who does not believe will be condemned”
ll Corinthians 2:12, 14-16 “Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ’s gospel, and a door was opened to me by the Lord,………. Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life.”
Some responded, some didn’t, both were effected, some for life, others for death or a negative response to the message. The last two, portions of Scripture, show, both general and effectual. For Scriptures are effectual call, read the beginning of Epistles, all but Hebrews, is addressed the “called” or a synonym of called or elect.
Hope this helps.
Jun 8th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
The BOC,
You are correct in affirming that the Abrahamic Covenant is fulfilled in Christ. However, to reduce all that is revealed in this small passage of Scripture to what you’ve posted seems exegetically shallow in such a rich passage.
In declaring that the Judaizers have no Judaism left to return to (as the covenant with Abraham was fulfilled in Christ), Paul contrasts the faith of the Messianic Jews with the works under the Mosaic Law (all 613 – I do not subscribe to the Reformed threefold delineation – they are a whole). The Mosaic Law was given to national or physical Israel 430 after the covenant with Abraham when the gospel was preached to him beforehand. Since the Jews claim to be the sons of Abraham as a national people, Paul refutes this idea by saying that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Much more can be said here, but this should hopefully move things forward an inch or two.
As for Romans 2, how can you say that the Bible isn’t clear as to what “inwardly” means? Does not Paul contrast “inwardly” with “outward and physical?” Does he not stipulate that the spiritual Jew’s circumcision is a matter of the heart and Spiritual? We can be certain here that Paul is speaking of the biblical theme of the Israel within Israel.
My position is that there has always been a remnant of believers in Old Testament Israel that were regenerated by the Holy Spirit, making them the Israel within Israel. These had circumcised hearts by the Spirit just like Paul is describing to the moral Jews in Romans 2.
Jun 8th, 2008
Travis
Can you explain Reformed threefold delineation in more detail?
I dont know where I have been I thought the reformed teachers taught the Israel in Israel.
Jun 9th, 2008
Johnny B
Here’s one more, Acts 16:13-15 “And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household were baptized,”
The Gospel went to the women there, but the Lord opened Lydia’s heart. We see general and effetual calling, here as well.
Jun 9th, 2008
Denise
DS, you asked, “My question is why is it so hard for soldiers of God to accept that we are chosen? Why is it so hard to draw a line in the sand? ”
I think it starts with the “gospel” they are “saved” with, which is usually man-centered. If a person puts Man at the center of Salvation, the Gospel, the Cross, God’s universe, and Scripture, they will never understand God’s Sovereignty in election. Moreover, they will not understand our total depravity and therefore our utter need for His election (w/o which we would never be saved as we are unable to choose Him without Regeneration). As it is, they have everything on its head.
I’ve come to the conclusion that most professing Christians call Jesus “Lord” but will not have Him rule over them, especially in salvation. Which means they are not in the catagory of Rom. 10:9-10, which is the very definition of the Narrow Road.
As the Spurge says, why shouldn’t the Bridegroom choose His bride?
Start with a Free Will “gospel” and you will have YEARS AND YEARS of battles on your hands.
Jun 9th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Hi Travis,
You asked: “Can you explain Reformed threefold delineation in more detail?”
The threefold delineation is a theological concept that divides the Mosaic Law into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. So, out of the 613, the 603 that are categorized as civil and ceremonial have been cancelled or abrogated, leaving 10 in the category of “moral.”
Guess which 10 they are. If you guessed the “Ten Commandments,” you are right! They take the 10 (decalogue) and label them as the “moral law,” teaching that they are binding on the new covenant believer. So, while the civil and ceremonial laws are no longer in effect today, they hold that the moral law is.
This threefold division has no exegetical basis, and I, along with DA Carson/Morey/Reisinger/et al., would argue that the whole law is moral. In other words, to disobey the civil or ceremonial laws would be immoral, not just uncivil or unceremonial – if that makes any sense!
Hopefully this helps a little.
Jun 9th, 2008
Travis
Ok so we obey the whole law by who Christ is and what he has done?
Jun 9th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
That is close enough. But basically, that is correct.
Another way to see this is to say we look to Christ not back to Moses.
Jun 9th, 2008
Travis
This is one issue that I have been struggling with and everyone I ask never gave me a good answer, or maybe it was just until now that it clicked. Im goning to read a bit more on the Law and the gosple, from the people you suggested
Jun 9th, 2008
Johnny B
DS said “The paster said when refering to Romans 9 one I love one I hate this is about the election of Israel, not at about heaven or hell. He continued to say there are five types of election refered to in the bible.”
I agree with him, on Romans 9, as far as Israel being the subject of chapter 9. But, is he saying that Esau and Pharaoh, went to heaven? Even though it’s about Israel, there were individuals, elected by God to bring forth the Messiah or the eternal plan of God.
Abram, Nehemiah 9:7 “You are the Lord God, Who chose Abram, And brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans, And gave him the name Abraham;”
There is different types of election or choosing, the fore fathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel, Deuteronomy 4:37 “And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them” You have individual and national.
Jesus was elect, Matthew 12:18 “Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles”
The Church is chosen 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people,”
To be king 1 Samuel 10:24 “Do you see him whom the Lord has chosen, that there is no one like him among all the people?” So all the people shouted and said, “Long live the king!”
To be priests, Deuteronomy 18:5 “For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons forever.”
To be prophets, Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
To be apostles, John 6:70 “Jesus answered them, Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
To eternal life, Acts 13:48 “Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
There are other, like obeying and sanctification, but I don’t see how this answers the question, you asked that pastor. Sounds like he was side stepping you. I would guess, he has a problem, with the ones that are not chosen, their fate is hell. I had that problem myself, he probably thinks how can a Holy and Just God, over look some, that their end will be hell. When we, should think, how can a Holy and Just God, chose any on us, we all deserve hell. Yet still remain Holy and Just, when doing so. Our logic, laws, and reasoning, can not deal with this. We place God under the same laws, reasoning and logic, as we are under, when He’s not under them. The Bible, doesn’t tell us, why, only that, He did.
Hope that helps
Jun 9th, 2008
Denise
I agree with what Johnny B said in his last paragraph.
I know many people who have the same problem. You are right…the REAL question should be, why would God choose ANYONE? Why not all of us go to Hell? The reason they don’t ask this is because they don’t see Man’s total depravity. They think there’s some sort of neutrality toward God and sin and one can just as easily chose to be saved as not. If they saw the total depravity of Man, then they’d see the awesomeness of God’s Sovereign Grace to save any wretched soul. They’d see they can’t do one thing to save themselves and are wholely dependant upon God for all of their salvation. As it is, they just don’t see biblical Election as “fair”. Which leads me to the next comment you made Johnny….
You are right also re: how people place God under the same laws, reasoning, and logic and how none of them can deal with these biblical doctrines. This is one of the biggest problems I see with professing Christians. Its also why the cults reject the Trinity: they’d rather have a god they can logically accept. Well, come to think of it, its what “Christians” do too…they want a god they can justify before man, emotionally.
I believe the following: Logic and Rationale = man-determined means of accepting or denying truth. Its mere practicle atheism.
I have witnessed numerous times how “Christians” will reject a Truth because it was not served on the Logic Platter and until it is, they will NOT accept it. Logic, however, is man-made and is of the flesh, not of the spirit; spiritual things are spiritually discerned, which is why the pharisees and Greeks could NOT understand the Truth of Jesus Christ.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Logic and reason completely fail to explain the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ, His eternal existance as God the Son, the Trinity, the Literal Six Day Creation, the parting and drying of the Red Sea, the Substituionary Atonement, justification, the victory of Israel against the huge countries surrounding her, the parting and drying of the Jordan River, Samson’s strength while he had long hair, the plea of forgiveness by Stephan and Jesus when being slaughtered, counting our trials as joy, the resurrection of Lazarus, the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ with Moses and Elijah appearing, demons, angels, deception, God hardening hearts and blinding eyes, the living and active sufficiency of Scripture alone…and on and on. These are spiritual things that the skeptic will not accept in faith b/c he demands logic and logic won’t accept the spiritual things of God.
Skeptics never have enough evidence and scholars are never satisfied with Scripture. Both love logic, to their sorrow.
Jun 10th, 2008
DS
JOHNNY B,
Your last thought are exactly what this man I beleive was thinking.
(Johnny B) “I would guess, he has a problem, with the ones that are not chosen, their fate is hell.”
But instaed he used “logic” as a tool to say (Pastor) “there is no proof of predestination of hell, he continues to say as soon as you enter logic into this verse (Rom 9:13) you left to logic.
I should have shown him the verse of Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Brad B said, my advice to you is keep looking. You seem to have encountered one who’s unqualified to be teaching the meat of the word.
At this point I would not be a soldier if I did not say a fight.
Jun 10th, 2008
Mario
Johnny B,
Hang in there. I will post some material on this matter tonight.
Jun 10th, 2008
Johnny B
DS,
The natural, conclusion to election, is if there is election, there has to be rejection. The rejection, starts with man, we reject God. Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
This good is in relation, toward God. We by nature, are sinners. When we are very young, we will, take another child’s toy. Then are parents, will tell us to give it back. We say NO!! it’s mine, we broke four commandments in one act. Not honoring are parents, by saying, no, to them. We by, taking the toy, have stolen. We lied, by saying it’s mine, we coveted the toy, that’s why we took it. So commandments, 5, 8, 9 and 10, were broken. You could probably throw in, #1, that toy was so important to us, that it became a type of god to us.
So we by nature reject God. To fully understand election. A person needs to understand what sin is and how sinful mankind is. Also needs to understand the Holiness of God, not in that order. That’s what it took for me to get a grasp of it, do I fully understand it, no, but I submit to it.
Mario, will be looking for the post.
Jun 10th, 2008
tommy L
Hi Steven M,
“This threefold division has no exegetical basis, and I, along with DA Carson/Morey/Reisinger/et al., would argue that the whole law is moral. In other words, to disobey the civil or ceremonial laws would be immoral, not just uncivil or unceremonial…”
In ‘Studies in the Atonement’ - page 35 - IV.2: The Law of God - 1st parag
“…The Law of God is commonly divided into two parts: moral and positve, or moral and ceremonial…”
Do i just need to go back & re-read, “How the Old & New Test’s relate to each other” ??? Or am i not understanding what Dr. Bob has written.
Any help - any time - any length would be appeciated.
tommyL
Jun 15th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Hi Tommy,
Studies in the Atonement (SA) is the final product of what was a series of Sunday School studies that Morey taught as a pastor’s assistant at a Reformed Baptist Church in NJ about 30 years ago. He was fresh out of Westminster Seminary and admits that he held to some positions that he blindly accepted hook, line, and sinker. I have personally asked him about this and this is how he explained it to me.
If you look in SA close enough (and know what to look for), you can also see some amillenialism and other minor theological nuances he no longer accepts too.
But he has since made a distinction between moral directions and directives (see How the Old & New Relate ch. 5 - in particular pgs. 41-43). This will illustrate the difference between a transcendental moral law and the decalogue (10 commandments) as moral law as seen in most Reformed Theologies.
My comment above was specifically referring to the Mosaic corpus (613) and it’s implications for the New Covenant believer. I see based on your page number reference that you have the reprinted edition of SA. On p. 36 you will see Morey’s position which he still holds today on the Mosaic Law (2nd to last paragraph). Carson has helpful commentary on the passage Morey references in which he uses the term “done away with,” hardly a term most Reformed Theologians will choose to paraphrase the greek (pleroo) in Matt. 5:17.
I point this out to show that even then, Morey wasn’t fully in line with the typical Reformed position on the Mosaic Law, and viewed it as done away with as it was fulfilled (pleroo) by Christ.
For those that are confused about what we’re talking about, we’re referring to the Reformed position that says that the 10 commandments are the moral law of God and are still binding on the New Covenant believer - including observing the Sabbath. Much creative effort has been put into crafting arguments to prove that believers are to observe the Sabbath, or that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath, etc. This is the position that we would differ on, on an exegetical basis.
Jun 15th, 2008
tommy hensley
Stephen,
Thank you for the quick response. It is very helpful. God is glorifying Himself thru the hard work you do -
tommyL
Jun 16th, 2008
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