God, Evil, and You Task Force
To One and All,
No one seems to know where or how to discuss the subject of evil! Reading the blogs has been a disappointment and a waste of time. Why? People are following rabbit trails into dark holes everywhere. The rabbits are leading the pack! I for one will not go down into the darkness of a rabbit hole. My time is far too valuable.
Let us get organized. Only people with a Bible and a brain need apply. We need deeds - not creeds; works - not words.
First Task: Identify the English vocabulary for all the words that denote “evil.” This means you have to include such words as sin, bad, wicked, wickedness, iniquity, transgression, rebellion, pain, hell, suffering, etc.
1. I need one person to make a list of any and all English words that denote “evil.”
2. Who wants to do this? Members of the task force will vote who will do this if several people volunteer to do this task.
3. How will you do this?
4. What reference works will you use?
5. When will you get the work done?
Whoever does this task must not do a “half-ass” job. Your list will be posted and the task force will discuss what words you chose and if you missed some words or included words that should not have been listed.
Once we have a list of all the possible English words that denote “evil” in some way, we can take step two.
Dr. R. A. Morey
78 Comments, Comment or Ping
Travis
ill do it, im tired of just knowing a little about a lot of things, and not diving in. ill work on it and post it asap
Jan 24th, 2008
Travis
sorry forgot about the vote part.
So, for now I volunteer, if selected I will check libraries, web sites, I will ask believers and unbelievers their opinion. I will use a thesaurus, dictionary, slang books, religious documents, etc. It will be completed this weekend.
if I dont get selected I will be ready to help with the list of who ever does it.
Jan 24th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
The comment for prayer and counseling left by Chris has been moved to another post here.
Jan 24th, 2008
agogley
I’d also be willing to research and list all English synonyms for “evil.” I’d also be willing to collaborate with Travis and/or others on the project.
Obviously, we’d need to look at modern and antiquated thesauruses and dictionaries as well as works by well respected commentators and theologians. However, I’d also make the following suggestion:
Take the known synonyms for “evil” and search through every known English translation/version of the Bible (I have at least 40 available to me). Look up the Greek/Hebrew words used in the original text. Finally take the Greek/Hebew words and look them up in a lexicon for English definitions to see if there are additional synonyms.
I could work on it over the weekend, however, I’m not sure I could do the project (which I suspect would take several hours) in two days (I would cite each source and prepare a spreadsheet for future reference). I’d probably need until Tuesday or Wednesday if I’m doing it by myself. In a committee, I think it is possible to do in a weekend.
Jan 24th, 2008
travis
a committee would be good! They should communicate over email or blog
Jan 25th, 2008
Derek Manning
Dr. Bob and others,
If the Bible is our final guide, then why would we be looking at English words that denote evil? Would it not be prudent to go directly into the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek for their meanings in context with the culture that used them? Or perhaps I am putting the cart before the horse? If that is the case please be gentle with a recovering nimnue.
Jan 25th, 2008
agogley
Derek:
I think Dr. Morey plans to do that (or more correctly for us to do that), but you have to know what words to look for before you look them up in the other languages. I suspect that after we come up with a list that we will then look for every instance of use in the Bible. Perhaps it would be best though, to follow Dr. Morey’s guidance and wait to see the final result.
Jan 25th, 2008
Travis
we need to derive our understanding of evil from scripture but the word we use for evil can be anything that means the same as our biblical definiton of evil. So it is good to know how evil is used today as well as how scripture uses it, so we dont head down these rabbit trails.
*the GOD part of the task force knows evil perfectly
*the EVIL part of the task force interprets itself by itself
*the YOU part of the task force interprets evil in the light of the GOD part of the task force
Jan 25th, 2008
Travis
I have a question
No one seems to know where or how to discuss the subject of evil!
This seems to be the preface to this blog,so,
what does this mean?
where? in each blog, in our culture/life or…
how? theologically, exegeticaly or..
i wish i did understand a lot of things, i know this blog has been very helpful but we as people have to take it to books and study.
but How
i have a hgh school education, but have learned grammer and syntax by studying theological books. I have learned to debate by listening to debates, i have learned scripture by reading it, but i still dont grasp a lot of theological and philosophical truths
may God do away with my and our ignorance of evil, and everything else so we may honor him.
Jan 25th, 2008
Dr. Morey
Thanks to all for their comments. The reason I began with the English word “evil” and its synonyms is that most of you can only read English! And you don’t know where to look in your English Bible. Your computer software may not have the language fonts. etc. etc.
I would rather teach you how to fish than just give you a fish!
For example, 99% of the discussions on “evil” fail to deal with such words as “sin.” Thus they never think through the biblical teaching, “While all sin is evil, all evil is not sin.” We will examine that statement later…not now!
Once we have a master list of the English words for “evil,” then we can look to see if there are Heb and Gk words for those words. Then we must look to see if those words are found in the Bible. Then there more steps to take before you understand what God has revealed. We must proceed slowly and carefully. If you have not read my book on fearing God, you need to read it to see how a word study is to be done.
Jan 25th, 2008
Derek Manning
Thank you Dr. Bob. As my wife and I sat down over Roscoe’s fried chicken and waffles, I began to see exactly the point that I missed.
Jan 25th, 2008
agogley
fried chicken and waffles???
Jan 25th, 2008
agogley
oh yeah, when do we know who’s doing what?
Jan 25th, 2008
Robert A
Someone called Greg Hawkins and mentioned that Bob Morey wanted to debate him. I taped the show and had to listen to it twice to understand that Greg lost his cool a bit. When Bob was on the radio he use to challenge people to “Come out, come out, where ever you are.”
Jan 26th, 2008
Derek Manning
Yes, agogley, fried chicken and waffles. Soul food is so good for you, but bad for the diet.
Jan 26th, 2008
agogley
Who’s Greg Hawkins?
chicken and waffles just seems like a really odd combination. Do you put the maple syrup on the waffles too?
I’m still waiting to see who’s creating the master list. Only Travis and I really volunteered. Should he and I get started?
Jan 26th, 2008
Derek Manning
Craig Hawkins is a former CRI staffer, and currently hosts a radio program called “Living by the Word” that airs on a Los Angeles “Christian” radio station.
Yes, chicken and waffles seems odd. It seemed odd to me also; until I ate it. MMM, there is a reason they call it soul food. It makes the soul glad, but the body heavy, lol.
Yes, you put maple syrup on the waffles.
Jan 26th, 2008
agogley
I meant the chicken…do you put maple syrup on the fried chicken?
Isn’t CRI, the Hank Hanagraff ministry?
Jan 27th, 2008
Derek Manning
Personally, I do not place the syrup on the chicken.
Yes, CRI is Hank Handicap’s ministry.
By the way I have a list of English words for “evil.”
Jan 27th, 2008
agogley
We were supposed to volunteer and then figure out who is going to do what. I suppose if you already have a list, we should coordinate with Travis. The three of us could finish the assignment. Do you have the list in a spreadsheet or Word document format?
Jan 27th, 2008
Dr. Morey
Whoever has made a master list of English words that refer to evil in some sense, should post it now. If you see that you have other words that need to be added, post that. Let us make a list now.
Who wants to go to that chicken place? I do! But I do not know where it is.
Jan 27th, 2008
Derek Manning
Here is a list that I have composed from two Roget’s Thesaurus’
Roget’s New Millennium Thesaurus
Evil – adjective – definition: immoral
angry, atrocious, bad, baneful, base, beastly, bitchy, calamitous, corrupt, damnable, depraved, destructive, disastrous, execrable, flagitious, foul, harmful, hateful, heinous, hideous, iniquitous, injurious, loathsome, low, maleficent, malevolent, malicious, malignant, nefarious, no good, obscene, offensive, pernicious, poison, rancorous, reprobate, repugnant, repulsive, revolting, sinful, spiteful, stinking, ugly, unpleasant, unpropitious, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked, wrathful, wrong
Evil – noun – definition: immoral
affliction, baseness, blow, calamity, catastrophe, corruption, crime, criminality, curse, debauchery, depravity, devilry, diabolism, disaster, harm, hatred, heinousness, hurt, ill, impiety, indecency, infamy, iniquity, injury, knavery, lewdness, licentiousness, looseness, malevolence, malignity, meanness, mischief, misery, misfortune, obscenity, outrage, pain, perversity, ruin, sin, sinfulness, sorrow, suffering, turpitude, vice, viciousness, vileness, villainy, wickedness, woe, wrong, wrongdoing
Roget’s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition, 1995
NOUN: 1. A wicked act or wicked behavior: crime, deviltry, diablerie, evildoing, immorality, iniquity, misdeed, offense, peccancy, sin, wickedness, wrong, wrongdoing
2. A cause of suffering or harm: affliction, bane, curse, ill, plague, scourge, woe.
3. That which is morally bad or objectionable: iniquity, peccancy, sin, wickedness, wrong.
4. Whatever is destructive or harmful: bad, badness, ill
ADJECTIVE:1. Bringing, predicting, or characterized by misfortune: bad, ill, inauspicious, unfavorable, unpropitious.
2. Morally objectionable: bad, black, immoral, iniquitious, peccant, reprobate, sinful, vicious, wicked, wrong.
3. Causing harm or injury: bad, deleterious, detrimental, harmful, hurtful, ill, injurious, mischievous.
4. Characterized by intense ill will or spite: black, despiteful, hateful, malevolent, malicious, malign, malignant, mean, nasty, poisonous, spiteful, venomous, vicious, wicked.
The closest Roscoe’s to the OC is in Long Beach. Here is the link to their website: http://www.roscoeschickenandwaffles.com/
Jan 27th, 2008
James Kirby
Greetings Dr Bob et al…
I think the whole subject of Evil is itself a “Rabbit trail”. I’m not saying it’s not an important issue and Christians should not know how to present a Biblical answer to the question of Evil. What I am saying is that the issue of Evil is not the main issue when it comes to the most desperate need of men… which is Salvation. Men don’t need to know the answer to the problem of Evil so much as they need to know the answer to the problem of their own personal sin… and the only answer to that is the Christian Gospel. I don’t see anything on this blog site that addresses that most central issue of Christianity.. the GOSPEL!
The Central Core of the Gospel is the Atonement. ~That’s~ what should be the central focus if there is any concern for the souls of men. And for 2 reason;
1; All men are born in sin and lost on their way to Hell by “default”. The only way they will escape is by believing the Gospel. Jesus Himself said so; Mark 16:15,16.
2; Most evan-jelly-kill-ism is comprised of people who think that they are saved. The religious community is filled with False Gospels and False Jesuses which not only cannot save but form a ‘double seal’ on their coffins that will land them in Hell under a delusion.
Arminians believe their jesus -Atoned- for the reprobate! Anybody that thinks that that is a vald gospel is deluded. Yet the majority of evangelical professing Christians are Arminians. And even many so-called “Calvinists” think they were saved when they were Arminians.
Arminianism is one of the most subtle forms of Satan’s false gospel there is that is leading countless to their eternal doom.
Dscussing and debating the problem of Evil wil not do gents. No one in the entire Bible ever went after the souls of men with the problem of evil. They went with the Gospel.
I have had Arminian people tell me that their jesus not only died for those who were already in Hell; those who perished in Sodom & Gomorrah & the flood… they believe he even died for the anti-christ!
Muslims & Arminians don’t need to be told where evil comes from.
They need to be told that if they do not repent and believe the Gospel they will go to Hell. Then they need to be told what that Godpel is… God’s eternal purpose to save an elect people by having His Own Son take their sins in His own body to the tree and discharge the full debt of Divine justice against those sins… and those -Only-, in order to accomplish the salvation of His people by establishing a Righteousness for them that they so desperately need. They need to be told that that Truth is testified by God Himself by His raising Jesus Christ from the dead.
Any other Gospel is a False gospel that will send men to Hell.
http://home.paonline.com/jamesjay/Arm.htm
In His Truth Alone;
James Kirby
Jan 28th, 2008
agogley
Kirby or Jay or whatever other name you call yourself…
Most of us posting on this thread are Reformed and we are trying to learn more about theology and our faith. The Gospel has been presented on this site numerous times. However, those of us who do believe do need to be taught about other doctrinal issues. Dr. Morey, IMHO, isn’t just teaching us about the problem of evil but also how to research and study issues in the Bible so that we can fish on our own.
Secondarily, most professing Evangelicals would not understand the term “Arminian.” Having once come from a mainstream evangelical church, I can assure you that most evangelicals don’t believe in a works based salvation. They have quasi-free will beliefs in that they believe that God grants men free will to choose between God and evil but that God occassionally interferes with the lives of men. Most evangelicals have never studied the issue and have infant like beliefs on the issue. But as Dr. Morey once said, most Christians are Calvinists when they get on their knees. Obviously any Arminian view is a great theological error that needs to be rebuked and corrected. And Certainly this theological error can lead people to believe in full Arminian views and can deceive many. But that doesn’t mean that somebody who holds an un-Biblical view is not saved. I am now Reformed (call me Calvinist if you must) and believe that I was saved when I was attending a evangelical church. It was through my journey as a Christian in studying Scripture and seeking truth that the error in my beliefs became known to me. How was I to know? I was never presented with Reformed doctrine before. Does that mean I wasn’t saved? No, of course not. It just means I was ignorant, still drinking milk. In fact, I’d argue that my salvation was evidenced by my search for truth and that once I found it, I rejoiced in knowledge of it. We should rebuke and correct Arminian theology but we should also be very careful in summarily dismissing *all* evangelicals as unsaved.
Jan 28th, 2008
agogley
I’ll pass on the whole chicken and waffles thing. I like my chicken for dinner and my waffles for breakfast.
Frankly, I’ve never understood the whole “soul” food thing. Finding comfort in food…is just not right. I guess you can figure out I’m a generation Xer who grew up on the whole health food thing. Doesn’t taste good, but it’s less filling.
Jan 28th, 2008
Travis
I looked a lot of places and found the same as Derek but also these.
no one has written an exhaustive list of evil words
wickedness, immorality, iniquity
evildoing, transgression - devilry, deviltry
foul play reverence, violation
bad, badness -
malevolency, malice, malevolence
malignance, malignancy, malignity intense ill will
balefulness, malfeasance, mischief, immorality
nefariousness, vileness, ugliness, wickedness
reprehensibility villainesses, villainy perverseness, perversity terrorism”
wrongdoing, error
vice, frailty
immoral unrighteous - not righteous; “an unrighteous man”; “an unrighteous
wicked
vicious
malefic, malevolent, malign
maleficent
backbiting
blasphemy, railing
sin, bad, wicked, wickedness, iniquity, transgression, rebellion, pain, hell, suffering
Jan 28th, 2008
Travis
Kirby
are you saying we need to be ignorant of evil?
I believe what Dr. Bob is trying to do is equip us in this area, im sure he will do other blgs like this since he has written extensivly on the Atonment.
You are right that the Atonment is important, but think before you write.
Jan 28th, 2008
Travis
This guy is a nut he assumes that we are preaching the gosple to people in this specific blog but this is equiping us in all areas to give a defence.
I looked at his web site and he has other issues on there that arent directly related to the gospel, ie money.
we as Christians dont have a problem with evil so that is why we arent trying to find the solution, we already have it
Jan 28th, 2008
agogley
Travis, I looked at his site also. He actually tackles evil to a great extent at his site. He also looks at a number of other issues. I read the “money” section, which is actually debunking the idea of Old Testament notion of tithing applying to Christians.
Jan 28th, 2008
James Kirby
Hello agogley;
Kirby is my last name and Jay is the Initial of my middle name… so I use James Jay as a pen name.
So then…. do you believe that people can hold to the False Doctrine of the Atonement that says Messiah has shed His precious blood for the Reprobate, and be saved?
Paul said that God saves His people through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth.. not False Doctrine. 2Thes 2:13. And Jesus said unless a man believes the Gospel he is still under damnation and the Gospel is the word of Truth not false doctrine.
All Arminians believe their jesus died for everybody including the Reprobate. Since the death of Christ, which is the Atonement, is the Gospel that means Arminians believe a False Gospel. So do you say they are still saved?
And John said that anybody who does not abide in the Doctrine of Jesus Christ does not have God. 2John 9. That means such people are still lost.
Regards;
James Kirby… aka James Jay
Jan 28th, 2008
Travis
James,
I want to apologize for saying you are a nut that was uncalled for, I do still say that you are not understanding the point of this blog, and do not understand the men behind this blog. And you say we should teach only about the atonment and the gospel but you teach other things than this, which is hypocritical.
I will have to agree with James here mainly because I dont fully understand how the arminians can still be brothers and sisters if they believe we have something to do with our salvation, besides repentances, which is a granted by GOD also.
would not this be considered EVIL, or ignorance?
Jan 29th, 2008
James Kirby
Hi Travis et al…
I rather like to think of myself as a bit of a nut… so no apology necessary.
I’m not saying one should focus on the Gospel exclusively. I agree that other issues are important withing the framework of growing in the knowledge of God. But I -am- saying that the Gospel ought to be the main issue and that’s what I don’t see.
It can be quite easily demonstrated from the Bible that Arminianism is a false gospel. Therefore Arminians cannot possibly be true Christians. They are like the JWs, Mormons, RCs & any other pseudo-christian group. What magnifies the problem is that the evangelical community accepts them as Christians and that’s deadly. It’s ten times more deadly than any other false religion because it is passed off and accepted as genuine and that well seals the doom of many. The situation is therefore extremely urgent. Satan doesn’t care if you tell the Muslim he’s a heretic holding to a false god. Everybody knows that. He’s happy as long as you leave the Gospel alone and let people go to Hell thinking they are saved.
Here’s a paper I wrote about a real nut case;
http://home.paonline.com/jamesjay/Man.htm
It illustrates my point very well.
Regards;
James Kirby
Jan 29th, 2008
Dr. Morey
Guys,
You are all wasting time like the EOs. Let God judge who is a nut or not.
I was disappointed by the EOs who, instead of dicussing the origin and validity of the “essense versus energy dichotomy,” tried to escape the issue by pretending that I quoted someone out of context. I checked and did not find it so. They are guilty of the “red herring” fallacy. The issue is the origin of the dichotomy. I gave enough documentation to establish my thesis. The EO rabbits ran into their holes but I will not waste my time going down with them.
Is everyone satisfied with the following list of words that convey the meaning of evil in some sense?
sin,
wickedness,
immorality,
iniquity
evildoing,
transgression,
devilry, deviltry
foul play,
irreverence,
violation,
bad, badness -
malevolency, malice, malevolence
malignance, malignancy, malignity,
intense ill will
balefulness,
malfeasance,
mischief,
immorality
nefariousness,
vileness,
ugliness,
wickedness
reprehensibility,
villainesses,
villainy,
perverseness, perversity
wrongdoing,
vice,
wicked
vicious
malefic, malevolent,
malign,
maleficent
backbiting,
blasphemy,
railing
bad,
wicked, wickedness,
iniquity, transgression,
rebellion,
pain,
hell,
suffering,
sickness,
curse,
plague,
war,
death,
destruction,
sorrow,
tears
Jan 29th, 2008
James Kirby
Hello Dr Bob;
You forgot a very important word…
Lying.
That’s the evil that got us all into trouble in the first place. And there’s still a lot of lying going on, much of it within the evangelical arena. It goes by the heading of False Doctrine. Why don’t we all hone in on that one? It would certainly be most relevant.
Most people believe the Lie of Evangelical Arminianism; Satan’s almost-perfect False Gospel. See these 2 papers I wrote; they well illustrate exactly what I mean.
http://home.paonline.com/jamesjay/Arm.htm
http://home.paonline.com/jamesjay/DC.htm
Regards;
Jim
Jan 29th, 2008
Travis
Dr. Bob,
I see, I just started something I didnt want to do in the first place,a rabbit trail. By not handeling the issue at hand I allowed this to be reverted to the arminian debate and false gospels debate. I know these debates are good and all but we are not dealing with this here. I guess somethings I just have to learn as the hard way.
I hope everyone will give and take correction because this is how we become less ignorant of GOD, EVIL, and YOU.
Jan 29th, 2008
Travis
we can possibly take it farther if we us words that discribe evil or are evil, ie: lying cheating, adultry, anger. these sins/words would only have the definition of evil to a Christian because anything that is not of faith is sin, so we could make a lot longer list of sin.
The list does look good
Jan 29th, 2008
James Kirby
Hello Travis… et al.
You don’t think False Gospels are -Evil-? Any gospel that is not the One True Gospel is another gospel and Paul said anybody who brings any other gospel is under the curse of God! Gal 1:6-9. I would say that that constitutes a pretty accurate example of Evil Travis. Wouldn’t you? And people who traffic in False gospels and false doctrine are very Evil people because they are taking sides with Satan in his lies about God. Or do you wish to just discuss the abstract idea of Evil without giving any practical applications? What good would that do?
I say Arminianism with its false doctrine/gospel that their false jesus died for the reprobate is central to the discussion of Evil. It’s the epitome of evil going around today. It’s wicked because it not only dishonors God & His Son… who came into the world in order to bear witness to the Truth Jn 18:37… it also is sending countless to their doom under a false hope.
You don’t think that that’s Evil?
John said;
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that does good is of God: but he that does evil has not seen God. 3Jo 1:11
That means that people who “do” the Evil of believing & preaching a false gospel have not seen God. That means they are still lost. Unregenerate. And as such, according to the Biblical Doctrine of man’s Depravity, they are Evil people. They need the Gospel… which of course is the supreme -Good- given us by God Himself.
In His Truth Alone;
James Kirby
Jan 29th, 2008
Travis
James
I am in agreement with you in this area, that, we are commissioned to preach the gospel, but this goes hand in hand with apologetics.
SO
We are trying to study what is evil? For now. this is the beginning of the study. First, from what I can gather we will learn all the words in the English language that denote EVIL.
Then we can go into all the verses in scripture that talk about evil, to get a biblical understanding of how God views Evil, how EVIL views Evil, and how we should view evil in the light of God.
Then we can talk about what the Bible considers evil
Then we can look at commentators views of evil.
then we can apply what we have learned about evil in the ministering of the gospel, defending the faith, correcting those that don’t understand evil and the continuous study of scripture.
Yes false gospels are EVIL but we are not talking about that right now, and people need the gospel, right now you are talking to a bunch of Christians that live the gospel
SO
Join us in this STUDY and see how it will be put together as we come to understand the biblical view of EVIL.
Jan 29th, 2008
agogley
Dr. Morey, the list looks acceptable. How now would you like to proceed?
Kirby: I agree with Travis on this one. You’re taking us on another rabbit trail. The fervancy with which you want to redirect us is suspicious in my mind. Let’s stick to the study at hand. Otherwise, we’ll never finish this assignment.
Jan 29th, 2008
Agilius
Here is an alphabetized version of the list.
A little Shift+F3 here; A little F4 there, and …
Backbiting,
Bad,
Bad, Badness -
Balefulness,
Blasphemy,
Curse,
Death,
Destruction,
Devilry, Deviltry
Evildoing,
Foul play,
Hell,
Immorality
Immorality,
Iniquity
Iniquity, Transgression,
Intense ill will
Irreverence,
Malefic, Malevolent,
Maleficent
Malevolency, Malice, Malevolence
Malfeasance,
Malign,
Malignance, Malignancy, Malignity,
Mischief,
Nefariousness,
Pain,
Perverseness, Perversity
Plague,
Railing
Rebellion,
Reprehensibility,
Sickness,
Sin,
Sorrow,
Suffering,
Tears
Transgression,
Ugliness,
Vice,
Vicious
Vileness,
Villainesses,
Villainy,
Violation,
War,
Wicked
Wicked, Wickedness,
Wickedness
Wickedness,
Wrongdoing,
Jan 29th, 2008
Dr. Morey
Guys, Wonderful!
First, I have found that when a non-Christian or Christian brings up the problem of evil, I bring the issue down to reality by asking, “What evil is there in your life would you like to solve? Evil can be forgiven, redeemed, paid off, and even transformed into a good through the grace of Christ. Evil is no problem for God.”
This puts the brakes on letting the issue of evil spin off to a waste of time. The Bible warns us not to fall into “vain speculations.” Of course, that is what 99% of all philosophic dicussions of evil are all about! If you keep it real, the problem of evil can be used to evangelize the lost and heal the saved.
Second, we should make distinctions in the list of words we have gathered. Divide the list of words into different catagories.
The word “Evil” can refer to:
1. evil motives, feelings, lusts, desires
2. evil deeds, acts
3. evil immediate and ultimate goals
4. evil immediate and ultimate results
5. evil standards
6. evil situations
7. evil people, places, and things
8. evil doctrines, teachings, philosophies, religions
9. evil angels, demons, spirits
10.the Evil One
Divide up the list of words under each catagory.
Jan 30th, 2008
James Kirby
Hi;
Dr Morey wrote;
First, I have found that when a non-Christian or Christian brings up the problem of evil, I bring the issue down to reality by asking, “What evil is there in your life would you like to solve?
For a -Christian- the answer ought to be… None!
Evil for the Christian has been taken care of on the cross. The result… a Christian is one who has been set Free from evil.
John 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
33 They answered Him, We are Abraham’s seed, and we have been in slavery to no one, never! How do you say, You will become free?
34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone practicing sin is a slave of sin.
Jesus was teaching that those who know the truth are set free from sin, which is synonymous to evil. In fact all the words in your “list” can be consolidated under the one word that depicts evil.. the word Sin. As you are well aware Bob, one cannot really ‘define’ evil apart from acknowledging the existence of God. And when we properly define evil in that arena the one word that defines it perfectly in all its ugly nature is the word Sin. And Christians have been set Free from sin.
Rom 6:18 And having been -set free- from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.
22 But now being -set free- from sin, and being enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life.
In conjunction with Paul here in Romans 6, John writes…
1John 3:9 Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
Dr M…
Evil can be forgiven, redeemed, paid off, and even transformed into a good through the grace of Christ. Evil is no problem for God.”
True; nor is it a problem for a Christian, as the Scriptures testify. A Christian walks in Newness of Life that is marked by an overall absence of ‘evil’ or sin. That’s what Romans 6 is all about. Not that he cannot fall into sin. He can and sometimes does. But when he does, he repents, gets back up & keeps on going, walking in New Life that is Holy. In a word, a Christian is one who stops sinning.
You should have a look at my papers on evil. The platform I use, which is the Doctrine of Creation, came from Dr Rudolph back in R.E. That doctrine is indeed the grand answer to the so-called “problem” of evil.
http://home.paonline.com/jamesjay/Theodicy.htm
It’s all there.
Regards;
Jim
Jan 30th, 2008
James Kirby
Hi everybody;
Here’s one I found that isn’t in any of your lists.
An unregenerate heart.
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Now there’s something that’s really evil. And I didn’t get it from any reference works. I got it straight from the Bible. It says that the -imagination- of men’s hearts is evil. That’s a direct reference to the thinking faculty of man; his Mind or Intellect. So now could we not add to your lists man’s unregenerate mind? Now there’s a good place to launch an investigation ito the issue of Evil… wouldn’t you all say?
Remember Dr Morey, you said… “Let us get organized. Only people with a -Bible and a brain- need apply. We need deeds - not creeds; works - not words.
May I “fine tune” by saying only people with a ‘Regenerate’ brain? The Unregenerate mind is enmity against God. Therefore if a person is not saved then any discussion of evil will be fruitless, unless God is pleased to save them.
Sola Scriptura!
Jim
Jan 30th, 2008
agogley
Jim:
We can’t list every evil act. We’d be here for eternity. We’ve agreed on a list so please do us a favor, work with us or get out of the way!
Travis and Aguilus, when do you plan on splitting the list. I can work on it on Saturday. We can work together on it via IM or something…
Jan 30th, 2008
Dr. Morey
James,
I am surprised that you would say, “For a -Christian- the answer ought to be… None!Evil for the Christian has been taken care of on the cross. The result… a Christian is one who has been set Free from evil.”
Have you not read:
Romans 7:19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
Romans 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
Jesus said to His disciples: “Luke 11:13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
Having pastored for 35 years, I have seen the saints doing a great deal of evil.
Jan 31st, 2008
James Kirby
Hello Dr Bob;
The two passages you cited are not referring to Christians! They cannot be because if they are you then have the Scriptures contradicting themselves and that of course cannot be. John says quite plainly that Christians do not commit sin yet the man in Romans 7 cannot -stop- sinning. The whole passage in 1John 3:1 to 10 cannot possibly be a description of the Romans 7 man. I have dealt very extensively with that passage for years and it can be demonstrated exegetically beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul was describing an unregenerate man who was trying to find his acceptance with God by law-keeping. I have several papers on my site that demonstrate this truth. Have a look at the one specifically on Romans 7 at;
http://home.paonline.com/jamesjay/Rom7.htm
I have shown that it is exegetically impossible to view Romans 7 as a regenerate man without destroying Greek language and making the Bible contradict, Here;
http://jamesjay.110mb.com/index.html
…from the books of Romans and 1John.
In a nut shell… Paul said in Galatians 5:21 that people who make a -Practice- of sin [evil] will not inherit the KOG. Yet in Romans 7: 15, & 19 Paul says he -Practices- evil! The same Greek word >Prasso<; Strong’s #4238 is in both passages. If you look that word up you will see that what I say is exegetically sound.
As to Jesus telling His disciples that they were “evil”.. again that resolves to a contradiction. Jesus taught that Christians are good… not evil.
Mt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
And that Christians have -good- hearts not evil ones;
Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
The nut-shell answer to the verse you cite is that not all disciples are true Christians. Remember in John many of His disciples went back & walked no more with Him. I address that issue [because it is a standard objection against the doctrine of Sanctification which I have heard many times] here;
http://home.paonline.com/jamesjay/Heart.htm
As for you seeing saints doing a great deal of evil… how do you know such people were saints?
Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both -righteous before God, walking in -all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord -blameless.-
I doubt you could say that about the man in Romans 7.
God’s richest blessing on you & yours;
Jim
Jan 31st, 2008
Travis
So we dont go down rabbit trails but still are able to keep good blogging I say
Why doesnt James take our list and place the words under the categories given, with a twist, I would like him to put only the words that describe actions he has seen Christians do and he himself has done as a Christian, under those catagories.
other than that
I will start putting the list together tonight.
Jan 31st, 2008
James Kirby
Hello Travis…
You wrote;
So we dont go down rabbit trails but still are able to keep good blogging I say
Why doesnt James take our list and place the words under the categories given, with a twist, I would like him to put only the words that describe actions he has seen Christians do and he himself has done as a Christian, under those catagories.
Ans;
Just a few selections.
1. evil motives, feelings, lusts, desires
2. evil deeds, acts
All constitute Sin.
7. evil people, places, and things
False teachers/professors of Christianity. Churches that propagate False Doctrines/gospels. Things… I don’t know if there is such a thing as an evil ‘thing’; like a gun maybe? The gun is neither evil nor good. It’s how the responsible moral creature uses it.
8. evil doctrines, teachings, philosophies, religions.
Doctrines; Arminianism; Covenant Theology; The puritanical false doctrine of “Indwelling Sin”. Any teachings, philosophies, religions that are against the Bible; like Evolution & Abortion; Islam; Buddah-ism; Harri Krishna; Moonieism… etc…
9. evil angels, demons, spirits
Satan.
10.the Evil One
Anybody who is evil; Like Hitler or the Pope.
Now… how can -any- discussion on -any- of these categories of Evil be a “rabbit trail”? My suggestion is to talk about those that are relevant… like false doctrine and false professors, of which the evangelical community is overrun. As Dr Bob himself says above… let’s “bring the issue down to reality.” And let’s do so with an Open Bible. Anything else is the real Rabbit Trail.
Regards;
James Kirby
Jan 31st, 2008
Travis
james
those are good and all but I cant make myself any more clear that WE ARE NOT IN THAT STAGE OF THE DISSCUSION, THAT WILL COME AFTER WE LOOK AT THE WORDS AND FIND MEANINGS, THEN WE WILL PUT THE SCUBA GEAR ON AND DIVE INTO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. that is why i said it is a rabbit trail not because its not important, BE PAITIENT WE WILL GET TO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT……
If you want to teach us about evil doctrins dont you think we should learn how to read first. for some of us, mainly myself, I know exactly what you are talking about but I couldnt tell you anything but a robotic answer that calvinism has tought me. I can quote scripture and I know and believe the scripture, but I just want to learn the milk, I skipped over some of the milk ie, studying words and understanding hermanutics and just went stright for the meat, so that is why it is important for me, to learn these words so I can understand scripture better and I can be prepared to give an account, and to preach the gospel. Jesus spent time teaching his diciples, Paul went off for some time to learn also, maybe this blog isnt helping anyone else love the Lord and know the scripture, it sure is helping me.
Jan 31st, 2008
Travis
ill probubly be done with the list tommarow afternoo because I want to look up the word that I dont know and put them in the right catagory
Jan 31st, 2008
agogley
I can’t believe I just saw Jim say that Christians do not commit sin.
I guess that explains quite a bit about his theological positions.
Jan 31st, 2008
Derek Manning
I for one am tired of James Jay, or James Kirby, or whatever his current nom de plume is, turning this blog into a promotional vehicle for his “website.” Nor am I interested in a person that promotes the heresy of sinless Christians.
Jan 31st, 2008
Travis
I vote a debate on the narrow mind on the subject of hermanutics specificaly Romans 7
Dr. Bob and Mr. Kirby
Jan 31st, 2008
Travis
thats up to the mentioned parties, I just thought Id throw that out there.
Jan 31st, 2008
James Kirby
agogley Says:
I can’t believe I just saw Jim say that Christians do not commit sin.
Jim answers;
I didn’t say it… GOD did thru the Apostle John;
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abides in him does not sin: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he ~cannot~ sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God does not sin; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.
All I did was quote the Bible. You are committed to the Bible are you not?
Also if you re-read my post to Dr Bob you can see that I do not believe in sinless perfection. Christians -do- sin. The difference is they do not make it a -Practice- of it. People who make a -Practice- of sin are unregenerate; like the guy in Romans 7:14ff. Sin for the Christian is the exception, not the norm; like the ones in Romans 6.
To Travis;
All I am “talking about” is the Practical and remember it was Dr Bob who wants to “bring the issue down to reality”.
Also I did endeavor to do what you asked. I made some references to some of the categories etc… categories introduced by Dr Bob himself! Isn’t that ok with you?
For His glory alone;
James Kirby
Jan 31st, 2008
James Kirby
Travis says;
I vote a debate on the narrow mind on the subject of hermanutics specificaly Romans 7
Dr. Bob and Mr. Kirby
I’ve no objections.
JK
Jan 31st, 2008
Mario
James Kirby, who is this guy? Not James from our church hopefully. Which ever James this is, he has got some serious biblical misunderstandings!
Feb 1st, 2008
Dan
May I just say, that the recent book on eastern christianity is a good idea. but unfortunately entirely misses the point. It seems as though tabloids were used to write the books, with so much inaccuracies its just silly.
i mean apologetics is great, but not if there are lies.
oh and btw vlad. lossky didnt write the foreword to his book…a non-orthodox did. or doesnt that matter? but if your claim is that orthodox count buddha is a saint, then by getting that info from a non-orthodox…that would be misrepresentation right?
seriously….read, think, and ask before your write.
Feb 1st, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Dan, you are clueless and completely in the dark. I’ll submit your comment to the local Tabloid publisher, they love stuff like what you’ve written here. The foreword to lossky’s book is by Kesarcodi-Watson who recalls *Nicolas Zernov* the Russian Orthodox theologian say, “Orthodoxy numbers the Buddha among its saints.” Since we’re quoting:
“seriously….read, think, and ask before your write.” - Dan
Thank you for shopping at biblicalthought.com!
Feb 1st, 2008
Drew Kerr
To all that are participating, Keep it Up! Stay on task! Don’t let anyone shoot you out of the saddle! I am not actively commenting, but am looking forward to seeing the outcome with guidance from Dr. Morey.
Feb 1st, 2008
agogley
Kirby,
You are one heck of a flip-flopper. But I’m not going to debate you. We’re off topic.
Feb 1st, 2008
Travis
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then on one hand Imyself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other with my flesh the law of sin.
Therefore…
Feb 2nd, 2008
Travis
I Think this vs can sum this discussion up.
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then on one hand Imyself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other with my flesh the law of sin.
Therefore…
Feb 2nd, 2008
Reformed Mama
I think Dan is a seminar caller!
Feb 2nd, 2008
James Kirby
When Paul was an unregenerate Pharisee was he serving the law of God with his mind?
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, –blameless.–
Yes he was.
In Rom 7:25 Paul says that he “serves the law of sin” but in 8:2 he says he is -Free- from it.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me -free- from the law of sin and of death.
How can one be free from any law if he is still in service to it?
Answer;
The Romans 7 passage is describing Paul as an unregenerate man trying to find acceptance with God by law-keeping. The man in Rom 7 is in *Captivity* to the law of sin & death vs 23 whereas in 8:2 he has been freed from it. Therefore these cannot be one and the same person!
Romans 7 and 1John 3 cannot possibly be describing the same person! The 1John man does not commit sin. The Romans 7 man cannot do anything -other than- sin. He -Practices- sin… or evil; vs 19. And Messiah said anyone who -Practices- evil is lost.
John 3:20 For every one that Practices evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Regards;
James Kirby
Feb 2nd, 2008
Travis
I am still in the process of putting them in catagories, but first I thought I would get the definition to each of them, some I used websters some I used e-sword, I tried to use discernment on weather the definition was a biblical definition because some of the words we used are not by definition EVIL, unless they are used in the context of scripture ie. pain, sickness, tears
I also added a couple words.
Backbiting,transitive verb : to say mean or spiteful things about (as one not present)
Bad, adjective, noun, adverb
Badness -
Balefulness, deadly or pernicious in influence
Blasphemy, the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b: the act of claiming the attributes of deity
Crookedness
Curse, evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation or as retribution
Culpable, meriting condemnation or blame especially as wrong or harmful
Reprehensibility
Death the loss of spiritual life, The process of dying
Destruction, the state or fact of being destroyed
Devilry, action performed with the help of the devil : witchcraft b: wickedness c: mischief:
Deviltry
Evildoing,
Foul play, violence; especially : murder
Hell, “to hide” or “cover, the place of punishment of the lost or finally impenitent; the place of torment of the wicked
Immorality wrong done to our fellow man, and God with or with out action
Iniquity not an action, but the character of an action, and is so distinguished from “sin”
Transgression, to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral;
Intense ill will
Irreverence, The oppisite of [honor or respect felt or shown : deference; especially : profound adoring awed respect, a gesture of respect (as a bow)]
Malefic, baleful, malicious,wicked
Malevolent, having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite, or hatred productive of harm or evil, Malevolence,Malevolency
Maleficent, working or productive of harm or evil
Malice, desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another, intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse
Malfeasance, wrongdoing or misconduct especially by a public official
Malign, evil in nature, influence, or effect
Malignance,
Malignancy,
Malignity,
Mischief, a specific injury or damage attributed to a particular agent, a cause or source of harm, evil, or irritation; especially, a person who causes mischief, action that annoys or irritates
Nefariousness, the quality of being wicked
Naught complete failure;
Pain,
Perverseness, turned away from what is right or good
Perversity
Plague, a disastrous evil or affliction, a destructively numerous influx <a plague of locusts, an epidemic disease causing a high rate of mortality
Railing, to revile or scold in harsh, insolent, or abusive language
Rebellion, opposition to one in authority or dominance
Sickness,
Sin, miss the mark, injustice, transgress against God and his Law
Sorrow,
Suffering,
Tears
Transgression, to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral
Ugliness,
Vice, moral depravity or corruption , Vicious, dangerously aggressive
Vileness, morally despicable or abhorrent physically repulsive
Villainesses,
Villainy,
Violation,
Violence, intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force , vehement feeling or expression
War, a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end
Wicked morally very bad , fierce vicious ,disposed to or marked by mischief : roguish , disgustingly unpleasant
Wickedness
Wrongdoing,
Feb 2nd, 2008
agogley
Travis:
My list is very similar to your list. You added some as you said, but otherwise very similar.
Also, on the other debate going on, you’d have an easier time beating your head on a brick wall. It would make about as much sense too.
Feb 2nd, 2008
Travis
it has a few dents in it but your right, i hope James can see that we agree essentialy on the fact that its all about the gospel thats why we are doing this. But I disagree completly with his exegesis of Romans 7, even the little bit of greek studying I can do shows he is wrong. Maybe the Lord will open his eyes to the battle one day, we obviously are getting no where with this type of debating except the further studying of scripture which is what this blog is about, step by step.
Feb 3rd, 2008
James Kirby
Travis says;
But I disagree completly with his [James’[ exegesis of Romans 7, even the little bit of greek studying I can do shows he is wrong.
* I would be most interested in seeing your Greek study. Then look up the Greek word >Prasso<
Strong’s #4238. It’s in Romans 7…. 15 & 19 where Paul clearly states he -Practices- evil. And the same Paul says very clearly in Gal 5:21 that people who -Practice- evil are lost. Have a look here;
http://jamesjay.110mb.com/rom%207×19.htm
Regards;
James Kirby
Feb 3rd, 2008
agogley
Travis,
You want that brick wall now or later?
Feb 3rd, 2008
James Kirby
Let’s see your “brick wall”.
Feb 4th, 2008
Dr. Morey
Guys,
Whether Kirby is a sinner is a rabbit hole. Whether Christians can sin is a rabbit hole. A proper exegesis of Rom. 7, etc, is a rabbit hole. We must keep focused on discovering the biblical concept of evil. Any other issue is a waste of time.
If Kirby or anyone else keeps digging rabbit holes, he will be banned from this blog as a waste of space and time. No, this is not a rabbit hole open to discussion. It is a threat to kick off those who are wasting our time with nonsense. No discussion is necessary or allowable on this point. Shape up or ship out.
Feb 4th, 2008
travis
No problem
keep to the biblical concept of evil
sometimes i just dont know when to “keep my mouth shut” or “fingers still”
I am working on the rest of the list and should be done today.
Feb 4th, 2008
travis
a light bulb just went on.
Time is priceless and you cant get it back
Feb 4th, 2008
James Kirby
What on earth are you talking about Bob? Have you not read my comments where I actively contribute to your discussion on Evil? Have you not read where Travis asked me to categorize and I did? And now when I quote verses that speak directly to the issue of Evil… you want to kick me off???
Paul said;
Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the ~Evil~ which I would not, that I practice.
Paul said he practices ~EVIL.~ How is discussing the practice of EVIL a “waste of time”? It’s speaks ~Directly~ to the issue Bob! Is the word of God… Nonsense??
Are you interested in Truth… or Not?
John 3:20 For everyone practicing ~Evil~ hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his works should be exposed.
Jim
Feb 4th, 2008
James Kirby
Robert Morey says;
We must keep focused on discovering the biblical concept of evil. Any other issue is a waste of time.
*I absolutely agree. We’re looking for the ~BIBLICAL~ concept of Evil… not ideas from the depraved minds of men who write reference works! And the Bible clearly defines what that concept is… it’s Sin Mr Morey. That’s the ~Biblical~ concept of Evil. And the Bible clearly defines Sin. Sin is the transgression of the Law… as James says;
1Jo 3:4 Everyone practicing sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Therefore any ~Biblical~ discussion of Evil Necessitates a discussion of both Sin and the Law… and that is ~Exactly~ what Romans 7 is all about.
If you were discussing the Absolute Sovereignty of God in all things including not only salvation but Evil as well… and I wanted to bring up Romans 9… would you then threaten to eject me?
C’mon Robert!!
James
Feb 4th, 2008
Travis
Sin falls under all catagories, but not all evil would fall under sin!
Some words fall under a lot of different categories, if you look at these words just on their definition, you would come up with a different position in the categories than you would have if you looked at the word through scripture. ie plague sickness tears
I know there is going to be some critiquing because my mind thinks of things that could be rather than that are so rearrange please. That is unless Dr. Bob wants to do something else at this point
1. Evil motives, feelings, lusts, desires: war, Violence, Violation, Vice, Vileness, Villainy, Sorrow Transgression, Suffering, Rebellion ,Railing ,Nefariousness, Mischief, Malice, Malevolent, Irreverence, Intense ill will, Immorality, Death, Curse, Balefulness
2. Evil deeds, acts: Wrongdoing, war, Violation, Vice, Villainy, Transgression ,Rebellion Naught ,Nefariousness, Mischief, Malign, Malignance, Malignancy, Malignity, Malfeasance, Maleficent, Foul play, Devilry, Deviltry, Curse, Crookedness, Blasphemy, Backbiting
3. Evil immediate and ultimate goals: Violence, Vice, Suffering, Sorrow, Sickness, Rebellion, Plague, irritates, Malign, Malignance, Malignancy, Malignity, Malfeasance, Malice, Maleficent, Foul play, Evildoing, Destruction, Crookedness, Blasphemy
4. Evil immediate and ultimate results: Transgression, Tears, Suffering, Sorrow Perverseness, pain, Malfeasance, Evildoing, Destruction, Culpable
5. Evil standards: Wicked, Vice, Perversity, Nefariousness, Malign, Malignance, Malignancy, Malignity, Malefic, Immorality, Deviltry , Culpable, Blasphemy
6. Evil situations: Destruction
7. Evil people, places, and things: Wickedness, Vileness, Villainy, Ugliness, Hell, Death, Curse, Blasphemy, bad, badness
8. Evil doctrines, teachings, philosophies, religions: Tears, Hell, Destruction, Death, Curse, Blasphemy
9. Evil angels, demons, spirits:
10.The evil One: Death
Feb 4th, 2008
Mark
John 3:20 For everyone practicing ~Evil~ hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his works should be exposed.
So this must not include Paul in Rom 7 because he said in v 6 that Christians are free from the Law. In v 15 he says he hates the evil that he struggles with in v 19. He then goes on to say that he delights in the Law of God AFTER THE INWARD MAN- JAMES. And as for the notion of Paul “serving” the Law in Romans 7 the same way he did in in Phil 3? Not so…Paul thanking God through Jesus Christ for the victory he has over the flesh when he walks in accord with the new man isn’t John 3:20.
Aug 22nd, 2008
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