You asked: “If we know our sins by knowing the Law (to which I would agree) and the Law is part of the Truth that God hides and reveals, then how can we know our sin in light of the Law that God reveals and hides? Does he reveal it to us, we reject it, then He hides it? Exaclty how would you say that process works?”

To me, that’s what the Bible teaches. It’s why we read, “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that they may all be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV). It’s why we also read that God has given up people to depravity and idolatry for their rejection of Him and His truth (Romans 1:21-31).

Dr. Vic Reasoner goes into this in great detail in his book A Fundamental Wesleyan Commentary on Romans (ISBN 0-9629383-9-4), especially in his analysis of the Hebrew verbs qashah, kabed, and chazaq as regards the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. Here’s part of it:

The sequence of events is that Pharaoh first hardened his own heart. From Exodus 7:13—9:12 Pharaoh hardens his heart and chooses to become presumptuous or bold [both kabed and chazaq] seven times. At first there seems to be no consequences. Pharaoh’s magicians attempt to imitate the miraculous three times and they supply Pharaoh with the courage to resit God. Yet after the third time they grow alarmed and acknowledge “the finger of God” (8:19). But Pharaoh becomes bolder and set in his ways. He again refuses to acknowledge God after the sixth plague and for the first time God hardens Pharaoh’s heart in 9:12. This was followed by a warning in 9:15-18. But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail had stopped, he hardened his heart (9:34-35). The following verse declares that in response, God hardened his heart (10:1). From this point on, God strengthened or hardened his heart eight times and Pharaoh hardens his own heart only twice more (9:34; 13:15). Thus God hardened Pharaoh’s heart only after Pharaoh had repeatedly resisted God. The fact that God, in his foreknowledge, described this in advance to Moses in 4:21 does not mean that God predestined or preprogrammed Pharaoh to respond in the way he chose to respond. Forster and Marston concluded,

The Bible does not teach that God made Pharaoh unrepentant. The main word used for hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is chazaq, and it seems to mean that God emboldened or encouraged Pharaoh’s heart so that he had the stubborn courage to stand even in the face of frightening miracles.

The verb qashah occurs only twice in the context of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, and refers to the effects of the whole process of God’s dealings and Pharaoh’s reactions (page 420 in Dr. Reasoner’s commentary).

You continued: “As for Deut 5:29, I will be honest and admit that I have not studied that particular verse enough to discuss it with you, but I do have a question. In Gen 3:9 God asks Adam where he was. Does this mean that God did not already know where Adam was? My point being that could not Deut 5:29 be rhetorical?

“Rhetorical” doesn’t seem a fitting word for this verse. Because the verse is a wish rather than a question, it can’t be a question asked for effect or emphasis instead of for information; besides, the verse lacks the eloquence or wordplay characteristic of rhetoric. John Gill considered the verse an example of God’s sarcasm, based on the opinion of Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aben_ezra). You can find Gill’s comments here:

http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=de&chapter=005&verse=029

But are Gill and the rabbi right? The ESV Study Bible, whose notes are Calvinistic, comments: “God’s wish is that their [the Israelites] holy and appropriate fear at the theophany of Horeb would become a permanent fear of the Lord in their hearts (see note on 1:20-21).” Apparently the ESV annotators consider God’s wish sincere.

To me, the sincerity seems reasonable from the context. Moses had received the Ten Commandments on the mountain (Deuteronomy 5:1-22). When he descended, he found the Israelites so frightened that they requested, “Go near and hear all the LORD our God will say and speak to us all that the LORD our God will speak to you, and we will hear and do it” (5:27). Aware of their words, God told Moses, “I have heard the words of this people, which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken” (5:28). Unless God was being sarcastic in saying the Israelites had spoken rightly, I don’t see how Deuteronomy 5:29 could be an example of sarcasm. Besides, God’s wish in Deuteronomy 5:29 seems similar to the sorrow He expresses in Psalm 81:8-16 over Israel’s unrepentance.

I hope this information helps.

In Christ,
Frank

That was a fine answer. I would agree with you 100%. Here’s why I was asking…

If the Truth of God is the entireity of the Bible and God hides and reveals this Truth then I ask how you can say what you said eailer..

“I agree both that God hides the truth (Matthew 11:25) and that people must know the truth of their sin before they can repent. How may people know of their sins? From the Law, which was known to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

If we know our sins by knowing the Law (to which I would agree) and the Law is part of the Truth that God hides and reveals, then how can we know our sin in light of the Law that God reveals and hides? Does he reveal it to us, we reject it, then He hides it? Exaclty how would you say that process works?

As for Deut 5:29, I will be honest and admit that I have not studied that particular verse enough to discuss it with you, but I do have a question. In Gen 3:9 God asks Adam where he was. Does this mean that God did not already know where Adam was? My point being that could not Deut 5:29 be rhetorical?

You asked how Deuteronomy 5:29 helped changed my mind. In the NASB, that verse has the LORD saying of the people rescued from Egypt, “Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!”

As a John Gill type of Calvinist, I believed in unconditional election and irresistible grace as well as the other teachings in the acronym TULIP. Of course, I also believed in sola Scriptura and semper reformada. So, when biblical evidence showed God talking in ways inconsistent with the doctrine that He gives new hearts to people whenever He pleases and without regard to any foreseen response from those people, I began the semper reformada process of conforming my views to Scripture.

In short, I couldn’t handle Deuteronomy 5:29 just as you and the other Calvinists here apparently can’t.

Yes, I consider the Ten Commandments and OT part of the same truth, especially since the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament quote and/or paraphrase parts of the OT in many places. To get saved, people would need enough knowledge to recognize their sinfulness, repent of it, and turn to the true God through His Messiah. Gentiles with no biblical background could be reached through the revelation given to them, as is evident from Paul’s Sermon on Mars Hill (Acts 17:22-34) and his approach of knowing “nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2).

I hope that’s a decent answer.

Ok, so now explain how Deuteronomy 5:29 helped “change” your mind? What exactly caused the change? How were you convinced?

I know that defining God’s Truth is not easy in a short paragraph. Would you say that the Ten Commandments and the OT law are part of that same truth?

You say you used to be an Arminian until three years ago, when God changed your views. That’s interesting because about the time of your conversion to Calvinism, God changed my views from the five-point Calvinism (John Gill variety) I’d held for about 15 years. I’m curious what kind of Arminian you used to be and what Bible verse or verses were key to your change. A few verses that precipitated my change are Deuteronomy 5:29; Revelation 22:17; 1 Timothy 1:13—you know, the ones that Calvinists here have avoided thus far. Besides, I became troubled by all the biblical conditions I had to ignore in order to believe in unconditional election and eternal security.

You asked me to define the word “truth” as I use it when I say God reveals or hides truth from whom He wills. Wow! The truth I have in mind is what Jesus referred to when He had sent out His disciples (Matthew 11:25-27) and when He gave the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:18-23). This truth would consist of the information necessary for trusting in Jesus as Messiah, Savior, Lord, Son of God, Son of Man, King of kings, Lord of lords; believing in His death, burial, and resurrection; and thereby having forgiveness and life in His name (John 20:30-31).

Now… Just to make sure you and I are both on the same page and using the terms the same and comparing apples to apples. Will you please define “truth” as you define truth when you say God reveals or hides truth from whom He wills?

You wrote: “God either hids the truth or He doesn’t. My point about repenting is that you must know the truth of your sin before you can repent. Would you agree?”

I agree both that God hides the truth (Matthew 11:25) and that people must know the truth of their sin before they can repent. How may people know of their sins? From the Law, which was known to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:6 NASB 1995), whom Jesus had dispatched His disciples to witness to. It’s as Paul later wrote: “… The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24 ibid).

You continued:

If your answer is yes to that question then how can this be true “I believe God doesn’t harden people until they have rejected a genuine offer of the Gospel?” The Gospel is truth and if God has hidden it from people how can they know the truth? If they first reject the truth before God hides it from them then at least at one point they knew the truth and since God is the one who reveals the truth that would mean that at one time God revealed it to them, then they rejected it, then He hid it. Not really sure I’m following the logic here…

In the parable of the sower, Jesus illustrated how people may lose truth they’ve heard:

3 And He [Jesus] spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up” (Matthew 13:3-4 NASB 1995).

The unplowed soil beside the road represented hard, unprepared hearts. The people of Israel were responsible to break up their fallow ground (Jeremiah 4:3; Hosea 10:12).

Jesus later explained what He’d said:

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road” (Matthew 13:18-19 NASB http://www.studylight.org).

Yes, people may forget truth they’ve heard without caring enough to act on. It’s as James wrote: “23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was” (James 1:23-24 NASB http://www.studylight.org).

Something else: Jesus spoke in parables as a way of hiding truth from those who didn’t want it:

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, `YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,

WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,

AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,

OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,

HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,

AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,

AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it” (Matthew 13:10-17 NASB http://www.studylight.org).

Most people who heard this parable didn’t care enough to request an explanation. They’d even closed their eyes and become hard-hearted and spiritually deaf. Because the disciples, in contrast, cared enough to ask, Jesus helped them understand new truth in addition to the truth they already had. As to earlier generations of prophets and righteous men who had desired to see what the disciples saw, they were justified for believing and obeying what God had revealed to them.

You closed: “BTW… If you admit that God is the one who reveals truth and hides truth, I think you are more on your way to being a Calvinist that you think.”

As an Arminian rather than a Calvinist, I don’t think God reveals or hides truth unconditionally. How much consideration have you given to Arminianism? If you’re surprised to hear an Arminian say God reveals and hides truth, you may have Arminianism confused with that popular soteriology which tries to market God to people who want a mushy, unconditionally loving god instead of the holy, all-knowing, all-powerful God of Scripture.

I understand the difference between the terms you used, but don’t understand how that changes things. God either hids the truth or He doesn’t. My point about repenting is that you must know the truth of your sin before you can repent. Would you agree?

If your answer is yes to that question then how can this be true “I believe God doesn’t harden people until they have rejected a genuine offer of the Gospel?” The Gospel is truth and if God has hidden it from people how can they know the truth? If they first reject the truth before God hides it from them then at least at one point they knew the truth and since God is the one who reveals the truth that would mean that at one time God revealed it to them, then they rejected it, then He hid it. Not really sure I’m following the logic here…

BTW… If you admit that God is the one who reveals truth and hides truth, I think you are more on your way to being a Calvinist that you think.