Dear wandering internet surfer, you have come across a question not asked by today’s nominal evangelical preachers who compromise truth in order to make people feel happy and good about themselves. Does God hate you? Think about that for a moment.
Many of you out there see God as the Stay Puffed Marshmallow Man who loves everyone and would never send anyone to hell. At the risk of being hated and come against by Christians who always say that God loves the sinner but hates the sin, I will declare to you the truth! The truth is God hates sin and the sinner! A Holy God cannot look upon sin. At the judgment, sin will not be cast into hell; the sinner will be!
You who do not know Jesus Christ as your Prophet who is the Truth (John 14:6), your Priest who atoned for your sin once and for all by shedding His blood on a Roman Cross (Heb 10), and as your King who is Lord over all of life, are in a grave position. Every breath you take in this life outside of Christ is storing up wrath for yourself. Original sin condemned us all to hell from the Garden of Eden. We must analyze all the wickedness that lies deep within the human heart. There is no escaping the judgment day that is appointed for everyone that has ever lived in the history of the world!
Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Buddhists, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Atheists, Scientologists, Sikhs, free thinkers, know-it-alls, and all those unconverted Christians in the church, you who think that your right standing before God comes out of the observance of doctrines of men and the worship of idols, and your own good works!
God calls upon all men to repent of sin turning from idols to the true and living God! It is our prayer that perhaps He will grant you repentance and give you faith that originates from Him. This faith is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-10)!
The most horrible words human ears will ever hear are “depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.” There is coming a great day when God will gather the living and the dead to give an account for all that was said and done while in the body (Heb. 4:12-13). Let’s look at the following passage from the book of Matthew 25:
“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ‘For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited me in; naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you visited me; I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘ Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to
The truth is that God in fact hates sin and especially the worker of it; you. Are you realizing that you are not one who is in union with the Messiah Jesus and under the wrath of God (Romans 1)? If so, repent of your sin, give yourself to Jesus while you still have breath. There is room at the cross because Jesus did not come for those who are righteous for there are none righteous (Romans 3), but for sinners (Romans 10). May God divinely reveal Himself to you through His word. Salvation is the work of God from beginning to end. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved but through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
{ 63 comments… read them below or add one }
Amen.
I cant believe you wrote this, how could you!! just kidding
Its a great thing how God can hate someone and elect him out of his hatred and show him grace by washing him by the blood of the lamb, and then giving him the spirit to dwell with in him, now that is love.
Amen brother. I know he hated me! I was as the great hymn says:
Against the God who rules the sky I fougth with hand uplifted high, despised the mention of His grace, to proud to seek a hiding place
Enwrapped in thick Egyptian night and fond of darkness more than light, madly I ran the sinful race, secure without a hiding place.
But thus eternal counsel ran, Almighty love arrest that man, I felt the arrows of distress and found I had no hiding place.
Indignant justice stood in view, to Sinai’s fiery mount I flew, but justice cried with frowning face, this mountain is no hiding place
Ere long a heavenly voice I heard and mercy’s angel soon appeared
He led on with gently pace to Jesus as my hiding place
Should sev’n fold storms of thunder roll and shake this earth from pole to pole, no thunderbolt shall daunt my face with Jesus as my hiding place.
A few more rolling suns at most shall land me safe on Caanan’s coast, where I shall sing the song of grace, and see my glorious hiding place.
Truly, the Triune God is full of grace and is able to save wretched sinners like us! His death was not cheap! It was free for us, but it cost the precious blood of the Son of God! I will praise Him forever because I hated him and wanted nothing to do with Him, but when the hound of heaven comes a looking for you, He gonna find you! I was arrested, regenerated, justified, now being sanctified, and one day, We’ll all be glorified!!!!!!!!!!!! Psalm 103!!!!!!!Jesus! What a friend for sinners!
so is this the new Faith Defenders tract?
I second the motion…this would make an excellent tract!
I sent this post to a few friends of mine. I think they hate me now. =)
A few years ago, reading a posting such as this would really upset me. Praise God he opened my eyes and by his Grace allowed me to repent!
” sin will not be cast into hell; the sinner will be!”
LIGHT BULBS just went on around the world! I’ll put in the third vote for this as tract material.
Great blog Mario!
I made a comment similar to this recently with evanjellyfishes around and the collective gasp created a vacuum in the room.
Psalm 5:5
I have heard a well known reformed pastor speak of Gods common grace which he gives to all men, and that is how God loves the whole world, and yet hates them at the same time.
what do you think
grace upon grace
I would agree with the common grace……It rains both on the just and the unjust. There a special love for those who are God’s children in union with Messiah. An example would be that of the love a man has for His wife versus that of the love he would have toward a homeless person the man may give money to. The love for his wife is special. So it goes with God. He does hate workers of iniquity…..
Most think in terms of bad things always happening to bad people, and good things should only happen to “good” people. The Scripture says there is none good or righteous. This is where biblical thought is important. Human views of what is good vs. what is bad are skewed. Bad things happen to both “good” and “bad” people and vice versa. We all deserve hell apart from the saving grace of Christ. Christians should understand that they will suffer, but like Job, whether circumstances were evil or good, Job saw them as coming from the hand of God. I would say read Psalm 73…It is far greater to be found in Christ and be in the “worst” circumstance than have riches apart from Christ and end up in Hell forever.
Mario,
This reminds me of what we discussed in our Men’s Discipleship group this past Saturday. We were discussing “reconciliation,” a topic that Dr. Morey covers quite well in chapter three of Studies in the Atonement.
We had such an edifying and worshipful study that I decided to post a little “nugget” here from the book.
“In the work of reconciliation, man is reconciled to God, i.e., God’s alienation is removed so that God and man can once again enter into a harmonious relationship. God and man can once again walk and talk together as friends. Thus reconciliation does not primarily refer to a change in man’s attitude toward God but, rather, in God’s attitude toward man.” – Dr. Morey “Studies in the Atonement” pg.32
Just like Linda from four comments above, “LIGHT BULBS” went off and we had to pitch our tents and ponder that thought for a while. This practically silenced, yet so beautiful and precious truth of the Gospel (a change in God’s attitude toward man), reconciliation (Rom. 5:8-10), needs to have it’s low-decible hush stirred up into a might roar from Evangelical pulpits!
All we hear are messages preached with the design and assumption that it is man who needs to change his attitude towards God, while all along neglecting the fact that unless God’s attitude towards you changes, there will be no reconciliation, thus remaining an enemy.
Oh, the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the only basis for which God’s alienation from sinners is removed! Yes, Frown, God may hate you! There is only one way (the Way) to be reconciled to God your enemy – Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:18)!
Beautiful Stephen! We will be heading into Chapter 3 at Larry’s on Thursday. I am looking forward to it!
Linda, I am going to send you and Erik a copy of Studies in the Atonement. It is a powerhouse of precious truth on the nature and extent of what Christ accomplished when He gave Himself for us on the cross. May God lead you to go through it together along with the children. Blessings to you, Erik, and the children! How is the weather out there?
Mario,
Thanks so much for sending out that book. While young in Christ, I still knew a lot of what I was hearing was being watered down to make everyone happy. A bit like the political hoo-haw going on right now wouldn’t you say? We appreciate all your support.
P.S. It’s freezing!
Hi all;
Here’s a real “gasp-getter”. Ask the “God loves everybody” people if there was a sign on the outside of the Ark saying… Smile, God loves you!
And no… God does not hate the elect. He loves them. He has always loved them. He loved them from eternity, in His Son.
Jer 31:3 Jehovah has appeared to me from far away, saying, Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love! On account of this, with loving kindness I have drawn you.
Rom 9:11 for the children -not yet being born,- nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,
12 it was said to her, “The greater shall serve the lesser;”
13 even as it has been written, “I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau.”
Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ,
Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in *love,*
Eph 1:5 having predestinated us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which -He loved us,-
Eph 2:5 even we being dead in sins, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved)
Regards;
James Kirby
Amen, praying this would enlighten many of our Calvary Chapel brothers, and those wandering in the abyss of the unrelated….Those churches are not the pinnacle of Christianity! When the music stops playing and your left without a chair…there is a mighty reformation looking for Christian soldiers who are tired of fighting on their own strength! There is the Captain of the Army of the LORD of hosts…..He is mightily advancing His kingdom as the great day approaches! See the great King leading the battle! There is no retreat! There is no surrender! Onward Christian Soldiers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a great army that the Lord is and has put together,
I have a question on John 3:16 I have heard calvinist arminians etc make an atempt to interpret this verse does this love refer to Gods love for all the whole earth unregenerate and regenerate. Or is it just for those who believe? ie. the love we were talking about before.
where can we find the distinctions of Love in scripture, I know the just side of God but I dont want to think thats the only side of God, scripture is clear it is not the only side of God. Please explain if possible how God can Love and hate an unbeliever. Also if possible how Gods soverignty magnifies human responsibility.
Travis,
Dr. Morey has actually discussed this verse many times. I don’t recall which CD it is though. I really do want to make a concordance of Cr. Bob’s CDs for easy reference.
If I recall correctly, Dr. Bob says that “world” doesn’t mean every person ever born but is a general reference to mankind.
Agogley,
That is right…All kinds of people…in Revelation it says the Lamb alone is worthy because He has purchased with His own blood people from all tribes, tongues, and nations. In A.W. Pink’s book The Sovereignty of God he talks about this…..”The Meaning of the word ‘kosmos’ in John 3:16….visit: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/appendix_03.htm
Thanks, Mario! Occasionally I do remember some of the stuff I’ve listened too!
interesting post script…
I am attending a mens study on the book of Romans at my church. Lets call it the “Church of the Descending Dove”
While discussing chs. 2 and 3, I made a comment that went something like this. “When we realize just how much God hates sin and cannot even bare to look upon it, and that the only way for us to enter into fellowship with Him is by the work of God the son who died for us, becoming sin in our place. Him he knew no sin was made to suffer so that we may have grace extended to us, it then shouldn’t surprise us that God hated Esau but that he loved Jacob.”
One of the men in the group quickly jumped in and said that God didn’t hate Esau, only that he rejected him. He also said that God loves the sinner but hates the sin. When I read for him and the group Psalm 5:5 he accused me of taking it out of context, and basically got very emotional. He too used John 3:16 to prove that God loves every individual. In my opinion, the HCSB translates that verse the best.
16 “For God loved (A) the world in this way: He gave His One and Only (B) Son, (C) so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. (D)
Interesting Jesus, we recently went through a study on this very subject. God meant what he said when he said “hate.” It wasn’t “loved less.” The problem with the church of the descending dove, is that the men are super emotional, and I must say effeminate. Jesus was not some hair dresser from San Francisco who loved everyone. It is high time for men to take heed to Scripture for what it says. What city do you attend church in? I believe the Lord is working in you the willing and the doing to go deeper in His Word! I will post a little something tonight on Jacob/Esau…..Let the walls of human reason fall and the fortress of Scripture alone rise up! Press on my brother!
Mario, I live in Montebello.
This is the email I sent the men in the group after the one man, Grant sent an email which contained a commentary on Malachi 1:2-3 where the commentator said that “hated” meant rejected.
I hope this email finds you well.
Grant, thanks for your thoughts on Malachi and further explanation of the use of the word hated, which in the Greek is ??????? or transliterated as emis?sa. The word has Strong’s number of 3404, the Hebrew number is 8130. Obviously the word used in Romans 9 is in the Greek while the Old Testament is in Hebrew.
I was hoping you would’ve told us where you got the commentary from.
Within the framework of the conversation we had on Monday night, I referred to Romans 9:13 and how the Apostle Paul used the OT passage within the context of Romans 9 regarding God’s sovereignty in election. Paul uses the word hated, again. The word emis?sa is defined as 1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest 2) to be hated, detested. It is used 42 times in the New Testament and not once is it used as “rejected” as the commentary would lead one to believe. In the context of Romans 9, even if we are to use the word “rejected” the rejection is unto damnation. Not to get ahead of myself in our study of Romans but chapter 9 is dealing with the election of the people of the promise, the Israelites first, then the Gentiles vv1-5. Starting with v6 we have an answer to an objector of the fulfillment of the promise of salvation to the Jews but Paul states that not all of the descendants of Abraham are his children but rather it is the children of promise that will be saved v8. Following this, Paul explains what the promise is and to whom it is fulfilled vv9-27. It is God who has mercy, it is God who has compassion, it is God who raised up Pharaoh for that very purpose, it is God that hardened Pharaoh’s heart… The use of the word hate is in juxtaposition to the love, the saving love that God has demonstrated on those, His chosen people. It is His love that saves and it is His love and justice and holiness that demand that the sinners that do not have a mediator, Jesus Christ be punished. Remember, these are not morally neutral people, they are rebel sinners who hate God, just as we had covered on Monday.
Now, to my use of Psalm 5:5 to demonstrate that God hates sinners. David is identified as the psalmist, and he begins by exalting God vv1-3. In v4, David gives us insight into God’s nature regarding sin. God does not delight in wickedness nor does it dwell with Him, v5 further illustrates the fact that God cannot even look upon the boastful and that he hates evildoers, v6 continues the same theme by telling us that He destroys liars and that he abhors bloodthirsty and deceitful man. Abhor means to regard with disgust and hatred. From these two verses one cannot draw out that God hates the sin but not the sinner, or even that he loves the sinner but hates the sin. In both of these verses God is the subject of the sentence, the words hate, destroy and abhors are the predicates. therefore it is God that is doing the hating and abhorring and destroying to the men who are evildoers, bloodthirsty and deceitful. To say that God only hates the sin mentioned is to negate grammar and syntax.
other verses that speak of God hating the sinner
Lev 20:23
Psalm 11:5
Proverbs 6:16-19
Hosea 9:15
Although I most certainly agree that God is love, we cannot impugn one of His attributes for another. He is also holy and just.
Blessings
Saenz:
FYI: I took a look at a number of commentaries and found various views on this passage. Barnes and Clarke were the worst stating something along the lines that the verb meant “loved less.” Clearly the verb means to hate since Verb 8130 has the definition in Strong’s as “to hate(personally). There is a minor problem because the NASB has the same verb translated several times as “unloved.” In the end it’s hard to accept anything but that God hated Esau because of the desolation actively brought upon the land of the Edomites (a note I saw in one commentary). Also, how does one escape the fact that it isn’t “sin” that goes to hell but the individual sinner?
Good email Jesus….it is clear that the word is “hate.” From the story in Genesis 27, it is clear that God had made His decision before either of them were born. They were both sinners. Jacob was known as a liar. The Lord sovereignly chose to love Jacob and hate Esau. It is difficult for man to accept this, however, we are to let God be true and every man a liar. It is difficult for men in the church to take in what Scripture says. How will they ever grow? God must do the working in them or else they will set in their bible studies year after year and never change. We are to take heed to Hebrews 6 and leave behind the elementary teachings and press on to maturity, understanding we have been justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Many of these men in the Calvary Chapels may not even be saved. This is what is sad and raises cause for much concern! May God open the eyes of their understanding so when the day comes they crash in their faith, they would find that they are resting upon the rock and not their own works for salvation. Only time will tell, until then, biblicalthought is here as a beacon of light shining in a modern church that is falling into darkness more and more as the days pass. Jude 3, 24-25
Just to add…In our study tonight at Larry’s House, we went through chapter 3 of Studies in the Atonement. Here is a good portion that relates to this: (Sort of long but eternally worth the read!!!!!)
“Christ accomplished His work of propitiation when He was consumed by God’s wrath and anger as He was lifted up on the cross as the substitionary sacrifice for the people of God. The Apostle Paul viewed the propitiatory character of Christ’s death as being necessitated by the justice and righteousness of God.
‘Whom God haths set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are part, through the forebearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that me might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.’ (Romans 3:25-26)
In summary, Christ Jesus removed God’s wrath by covering over our sins by the sacrifice of Himself in our place. But someone will object. “God doesn’t really get angry at sinners. God loves sinners but hates their sin. Therefore, propitiation cannot refer to removing God’s wrath and anger.”
This objection is based upon ignorance of the Word of God. It is clear from the Old and New Testaments, from the mouth of prophets, Apostles, and Jesus Christ Himself, that God is angry at sinners because of their sin. God’s anger, hatred and wrath are said to be directed toward the sinner as well as towards sin: “He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: The LORD shall have them in derision” (Psalm 2:4); “The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man” (Psa. 5:5-6) “God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day” (Psa. 7:11) “The LORD trieth the righteous; but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth”(Psa. 11:5)”For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom1:18) “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God who will render to every man according to his deeds. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation, and wrath” (Rom. 2:5-8) “For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life” (Rom. 5:10) “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13) “Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others” (Eph. 2:3) “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks ‘fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the lamb:’ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand;” (Rev. 6:15-17)
If God only hates sin and not the sinners who committed the sins, why does He throw sinners into hell? Why did God punish Christ as the sinner’s substitute and not just punish sin?
To be sure, the Biblical doctrine of the propitiation does not picture Christ as overcoming the reluctance of the Father to save sinners. Instead, propitiation is supplied by the Father so that we can come before Him with acceptance. Propitiation is the love gift from God to remove His just and righteous anger and wrath.
To jettison the concept of the wrath of God toward sinners from the definition of propitiation, is to destroy its central and essential meaning. It is to do violence to the Holy Scriptures.
“The wrath of God is revealed from heaven” (Rom.1:18). With this statement, the Apostle Paul begins his exposition of the Gospel. The only way to escape the coming wrath of God is to flee to the Lord Jesus Christ as your only hope in life and in death.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth upon him” (John 3:36)
The Thessalonians testified in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 to the fact that Jesus “delivered us from the wrath to come.”
Dear Reader, are you safe in the arms of Jesus? Are you ready for the judgment day? Have you passed over from being under God’s wrath to being under His grace and mercy? You should pray to God that you will know His wrath only as a doctrine and never by experience.”
Wow!
I need a copy of that book!
“Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Buddhists, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Atheists, Scientologists, Sikhs, free thinkers, know-it-alls, and all those unconverted Christians in the church, you who think that your right standing before God comes out of the observance of doctrines of men and the worship of idols, and your own good works!”
First, you guys make me sad to call myself a Christian. Jesus Wept. 2nd Eastern Orthodox do not believe they have right standing before God because of any observances or worship or idols or good works.
We believe that we are in right standing because of Jesus. The he lived the life of perfect obedience I could never live. That he died my death. That he gave his life for the life of the world.
God’s peace on you. God has two main roles we are not to usurp. King & Judge. Shame for you guys thinking you can be Judge in his place.
Seraphim
Seraphim,
Jesus wept? Why did He weep? The Lord calls us to judge a righteous judgment. It is clear from Scripture. The problem lies in seeing Jesus as this loving, sweet individual who would never offend anyone. That is exactly what Messiah came to do. He taught His disciples and offended most people. This is why they slaughtered Him on a Roman cross! The death of Christ was free for sinners, but very costly to God. If you did believe in salvation by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, you would not be contending against the message, you’d receive it with joy. What do you mean by “He died my death?”
“Shame for you guys thinking you can be Judge in his place.”
We are not ashamed of the gospel! This is why we are here. Christ said that if they hated Him, we would also be hated! Remember the Scripture “many are called, but few are chosen”? How about “broad is the way that leads to destruction”? The road to glory is narrow! We are here because of Christ alone. This is His message we declare! Many not understanding the righteousness of Christ are trusting in their own works as it evident by your words, that you are. I’d rather tell you the truth and have you hate me, than have you go to hell as I smile in your face and keep my mouth shut. Though it sounds harsh, it is the truth and I speak it in love. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend but an enemy multiplies kisses.” “Open rebuke is better than hidden love.”
Seraphim, seriously examine yourself and see if you are in the faith. If you answer yes, ask yourself which faith? I’m glad you are here since it is the Word of God alone which bring life and to declare it boldly without shame is our mission. Christ died for the freedom we now enjoy and we bless the Living God that He compels us in the cause of God and Truth.
hate is a human emotion. wouldn’t a higher being (i.e. God) be above such trivial human emotions.
are all of you so blind? there is no such thing as sin. if god were to create sin then god would have to have sinned himself that meaning god isnt perfect or omnipotent. all you people just read the bible half assly then go on crusades cussing out sinners and then call yourself a saint?
Ok, when jesus came into the world, when he died……did he not die for SINNERS?, According to the book of james if you breakt he law it makes you a lawbreaker, and a sinner. according to 1st john vs. 8 We all (true believers) have sin in us as of right now, and if you say otherwise it says the truth is not in you. look i could go into apoligetics and theology all day, the fact is god loves sinners because he has Loved and died and saved YOU, because you and myself are sinners.
in response to TIM
God did not create Sin, The Son of the morning allowed pride into his heart and then sin was born. God allowed it. He’s never sinned, if sin dosnt exist then Explain the condition of the world. Your thoughts are pure foolishness. Read the word of God in order to find HIS will, Not your own.
Have you all not read in Revalation, about The great day of the lord, when god was pouring out his wrath, and what did john say??? he said “because they refused to repent” All of gods wrath in the final day is another chance for SINNERS to repent, of course we know the one’s talked about in the final day will refuse to repent and will be thrown to hell because they never had jesus.
JC,
So are you saying God doesnt hate anyone?
Im sure you have read Romans so how do you interpret Esau I have hated?
Why would God kill people he loves?
If he loves everyone and he died for everyone would not that blood that was shed cover all sins? Or did his blood only spill for the ones that will believe?
God hates some people:
Ps 5: 5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; You hate all who do wrong.
Ps. 5 6 You destroy those WHO tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful MEN the LORD abhors.
Ps. 11: 5 The LORD examines the righteous, but THE WICKED and THOSE WHO love violence His soul HATES.
Ps. 11: 6 On THE WICKED He will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot.
Psa 139:21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? 22 I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Eze 33:10 “And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, Thus have you said: ‘Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we rot away because of them. How then can we live?’
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Psa 7:11 God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.
David says:
Psa 31:6 I hate those who pay regard to worthless idols, but I trust in the LORD.
Psa 26:4 I do not sit with men of falsehood, nor do I consort with hypocrites. 5 I hate the assembly of evildoers, and I will not sit with the wicked.
Come now Denise….by hate the Bible actually means “does not love.” At least that is what my itching ear version says.
Sir Aaron,
Correction: It means “loves less,” not “does not love.” Remember, you cannot do away with universal, unconditional love… (2 Op. 3:9)
You’re right. What was I thinking?
Sir Aaron, I’d answer that, but I can’t judge (Matt. 7:1)! It also would be unloving to tell you the truth (Gal. 4:16 esv). So as Bono said, “…in the name of love…”
Hey now! “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner” . So, I guess that means God loves sin less than He loves the sinner.
Ok this is killin’ me!
And the Flood (all but 8 were killed), the first Passover (all the first-born were killed), the slaughtering of Egypt, the Ammorites, the Cannanites, the unbelievers (that would be people) along with the Beast (a person), the Ten Horns (leaders), and Satan all thrown into the Lake of Fire…that’s all a demonstration of loving the sinner? Raining firey coals and burning sulfur and scorching wind on the wicked is an act of love?
I suppose when Scripture says God is a jealous God, they think it doesn’t mean He’s jealous?
Well, lucky for us, I guess now we can say “I hate you!” and be ok, since it means “I love you less”. Cool. My kids will be happy about that.
To all: A general comment,
I was dealing with the texts in Luke 14:26 “If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” In my discipleship class we went over the text and it was a collective vaccum as well. I explained that the hate seen here is not a carnal hatred that sinful men do and have towards one another, but a righteous hatred that will not substitute family relations for God relation.
We went to,
Deu 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, that is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
Deu 13:7 of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
Deu 13:8 thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
Deu 13:9 but thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. ASV
From this text I explained that God had already instructed His people on how to love Him preeminently and how to ‘hate’ in a righteous way those that would seek to take us away from God and His Word. Of course under this covenant stoning is not an option, but utter rejection of them while they attempt to lead us astray is.
I teach at a Calvary Chapel and yes it had been a bastion of Arminian presuppositions. But as I preach and several of the other leaders preach who are reformed, the tide is actually changing. The doctrines of grace were clearly seen as we continued on in later classes to establish discipleship in the light of Gods Election of people and the destiny of Christ-likeness is a predestination for the Elect. It all came together and I was so excited to see instead of argument and dozens of free-will questions (there were a few) the believers were able to put together the bible texts in ways they had never heard before. In fact it was said by several in the class “Ive been to Church for years and Ive never heard of anything like this”. The important point was to allow the paradox to remain, there is no need to change the word to say “loved less”. Being hated for what we are as sinners should not be a shocker, but it is and that is due to the poor preaching so many have heard. God does hate the action of disobedience which is sin, but he also hates those who practice sin, they are abominable to Him.
Its exactly these kind of texts that need to be placed forefront in the message of the gospel. The proclamation of being hated by God for being a sinner is as scarce as a reformer on TBN. It is from these kinds of words the congregation having both saved and unsaved within it may have the foundation of Total Depravity set before them biblically, not on their depravity but the actual distance and seperation there is between God and them. So few actually believe they are sinners, even fewer actually believe God is remotely slightly disapproving of them let alone hating what they are.
As an aside…I would preach on TBN, I would seize the opportunity to proclaim the glorious doctrines of grace…a gospel they have not heard as loud and as long as I could.
John
John,
This is great to hear. May the Lord cause revival to break out in each individual believer!
Keep us posted as to how things are going!
John,
Great news. Keep it up. I think real inroads can be made at churches such as Calvary Chapel. I find that many believers, when you break down their individual beliefs (especially their eschatological ones) that they have much in common with the doctrines in grace. They just have trouble making the final step to come to terms with Romans 9.
Denise:
“I suppose when Scripture says God is a jealous God, they think it doesn’t mean He’s jealous?”
Of course, He’s jealous. He’s standing at the door to your heart begging and pleading for you to let Him in.
And is telling your kids such things going to improve their self-esteem? You should actually give them a trophy whether they behave or not.
This may be slightly off topic, but since so many others break my posted rules in the sidebar it should be OK for me to break them too. After all, morals are relative anyway…
But Oprah Winfrey claims that her point of apostasy is traced back to when she heard a preacher say that God was a jealous God. I remember lecturing on the doctrine of Scripture one time and I was explaining how Scripture is the final court of appeal in all matters of religious controversy. I mentioned Oprah’s (at the time) recent statement and how that could be considered a “religious controversy” easily settled by Scripture as the final judge “in which sentence we must rest (WCF)!”
Here is a video of Oprah’s rationalization:
P.S. John, what a blessing to hear your report! It’s good to see you around here. It feels like it’s been about a year since we last talked. If I remember correctly, you and I were dismantling some radically Arminian Wesleyan Sinless Perfectionists (a blast from the past!). We look forward to sharing in God’s grace with you, brother!
we’re off topic? LOL.
Hello Sir AARON
We did discuss Romans 9 concerning Esau, we went over this time and time again. I addressed Esau in two ways. One, was his rejection by God that before he had done any good or evil God determined Esau was not going to be apart of either covenantal blessing or spiritual quickening to understand what his sin had done to him. Second Esau is a type of carnal fleshly man, the sinful nature that will not be ruled by God and could care less about any covenant or connection to God.
The question was raised, “You mean that God isnt calling everyone to be saved?” “Are you saying that salvation is not offered to everyone?”
I answered, The old testament abounds in such Election priviledge and non-elect judgment. I asked them to flesh-out for a moment the great judgments of God upon the Assyrians, Egyptians, Tyre-sidon, Edomites, and as many ites as you wish. I asked them a question “Do you think God extended to them the plan of salvation? Do you know if God offered them a covenant in order to know Him personally?
The answer is NO, God didnt offer the pagan tribes and societies a covenant, or give them revelation of his loving kindnesses or of his great mercies and forgiveness. They died without even knowing anything about a coming Messiah let alone being offered the hope that one was to come. They died in the sins of pagan wickedness and God didnt offer them the same blessing of knowing His commands and His person as He did the Israelites.
They were speechless, its as though they had never even thought of God that way. After that example I had very little to do to prove Gods electing grace upon the american-pagan society, how He brought them unto Himself by means of Gods gospel. It hit like a stone in a calm pond that they didnt hold the ace when it came to salvation. They (all of them) thought that salvation is the result of their decision, I told them their decision was made only because God had determined to reveal the light of the glorious gospel to them so that they might see Jesus Christ and believe. They were disciples because God had planned to save them and sent Jesus Christ to actually purchase them by His blood. They were truly purchased by God and their salvation was not a potential salvation made actual resulting from their performance. Every class was a brand-new message for them. God opened wide their hearts, I believe, and they received it openly. The time will come went its put to the test of ownership when arminian free-will seeks to regain its foothold. MY prayer is that God’s word has been sown into good soil.
John
Stephen:
The radical sinless perfectionism is to me only radical hypocrisy veiled by spurious doctrine. Their own lives testify against them. In order to justify the hiding of sin a cobweb of biblical texts are used to entrap introspective people who are unawares of how legalism shape-shifts in their own hearts. You were dealing with certifiable pelagians on one end and with others who have a mish-mash of bible, mostly from teachers that are as ignorant as they. Error abounds on many websites and in some forums the teaching is so poor and the interpretations so bad they have a better chance of going to heaven from the bed of a brothel than from listening to one of their pastors/teachers.
I appreciated your support and I can only express my thankfulness to God-ward for you that you love the truth
Thanks for the warm welcome, thank you to the others who welcomed me.
John
I am starting a group called the “Dead Theologians Society”
My Pastor has ok’d the group.
My dear Pastor who’s only quote’s were from Chuck Smith has moved to John Piper and Charles Spurgeon…I consider that a vast improvement.
I have several men who want to join and read the puritans, reformers and modern reformers. There are more and more men in our congregation that are reformed….some we have to hold down just a little, when we see the torches getting lit and a march around the church property ready to burn it down for arminian heresy….well I told them were not done bringing the rest of the men out of Egypt, so hold off.
Im way way off topic,….Ill end it here, you can bag this post of you want Stephen
John
John,
I am greatly encouraged by your posts. I have and continue to deal with people who claim to believe in free-will (I have argued that they really don’t believe in free will based upon their own declared beliefs…they cannot refute my specific examples).
I will remember you in my prayers.
In what state do you reside?
I’d love to hear more about your group and the planned reading material.
John, I get so excited when I see Scripture coming together–and when I see others see it come together! That is where I find joy. =)
May these words encourage you:
Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word AS TAUGHT, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Sir AARON:
The first book is John Murrays “Redemption accomplished and applied”
We read through the books on our own, then write out for the group what really struck us and interesting points that we feel the need to share.
The main thing is passion, Im looking for the men to find an author that creates a burning passion for Jesus Christ and for accomplishing the will of God in their lives. The suggested reading list contains books by Thomas Watson, John Bunyan, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and a laundry list of well knowns like Edwards, Spurgeon and others.
We will all take a walk through the institutes at some point, but for now Im seeking to let the men chose a ‘dead theologian’ that rips his heart out and puts it back ablaze with zeal. Theology is for proclamation and that is the sub-text for all that is going on.
The main thing is to really learn what these men are saying, I dont care so much about speed as I do they learn to think deeper and pray more earnestly about things that have never been brought to the forefront of their minds.
One of my good friends has about 25+ commentaries on Romans, he loves that book and has done years of study on it. He’s forgotten more than I will probably ever know.
When we get together its for several hours, one hour will not due, we ask questions, the hard ones, questions that force them to examine whether they believe because it sounds biblical or because what is being said is founded upon the Word of God and should be believed. The focus is on the Cross and the Atonement. My hope is that God will turn milk toast into steel. All things are possible with God.
So far its only been myself and one or two others, but Im going to put it out for the men of the congregation in a week or so.
Denise: thanks so much for the encouragement and as always a scripture to build upon.
John
AARON I live in seattle WA area
I used to live in Anaheim till 2002
You somehow managed to move to someplace more liberal than So Cal?
It might surprise you to know that outside of seattle this state is as red as Idaho and montana.
The problem being all the loons have congregated in such numbers and when their not clubbing or waging war against heterosexuals they vote.
John
Here it comes, I can feeeeel it. Sir Aaron is going to try to talk you in to moving to Houston…
How about Alaska???
You’re too funny, Stephen. I mostly reserve that pitch for you. Besides, it is a good idea for some of you…
Sorry Sir Aaron…you can’t have Stephen…we need him out here in this crazy place we call California!!!
I’m not worried. We’ll all be together one day.
But now that I know that telling you all to move to Houston annoys Stephen….LOL