biblicalthought.com

1. Agilius

   When I read the “freedom” part, I picked up on that right away; and well done Drew.

   But when I read the following, my draw jopped:

   “It doesn’t matter what religious background you have. We need to be reconciled to God…”

   Now, I haven’t read Rick’s Purpose books, but I always figured that if all the seeker sensitive churches like it, then it’s probably not helpful. There’s bound to be exceptions, of course, them being churches and all.

   Dec 13th, 2007

2. agogley

   Nice article, Drew. Did you know that North Korea invited Rick Warren to speak there? Interesting considering that I believe that Billy Graham was allowed to speak in Athiestic Russia during the old Communist days. Both now seem to be appealing to pluralism. Their watered down message is why I suspect that both were invited to speak.

   There is something to be thankful for though. Wal-Mart allowed a “Christmas Concert” and allowed a Chrismas message sponsored by the Salvation Army? Despite the foul message, it is good news that a major store has allowed any reference to Christmas at all.

   I’ve read the Purpose Driven Life, but it doesn’t say much other than you have a purpose and you need to find it. I guess I would also find such a meaningless book to be enlightening if I believed I had evolved from goo by mere chance. Seeker churches (I attend one) love it because it works for their gameplan of bringing in as many heathen as you can and then hope that you can deceive one or two people into believing the gospel (which is very difficult if you never tell them what it is, I might add).

   Dec 14th, 2007

3. E.Speedy Camez

   Keep it up Drew, this is something that needs to be put out there!!!

   Dec 14th, 2007

4. Will

   Right on target Drew. Thank you! I bought Warrens book 2 or 3 years ago, but it went into the dumpster after I realized what he was pushing, thanks be to God, who has graciously prevented my involvement in so things, from psycho drugs to every kind of false religion and radical politics.
   Wondering about the Salvation Army. Certainly hope
   they’re not compromised too. Merry Christmas!

   Dec 14th, 2007

5. Jon Powell

   Nice job, Drew. How can someone be “so close, yet so far”? I too tire of this drivel and outright heresy that Satan will use to blind the naive. Keep it up!

   Dec 15th, 2007

6. R. C.

   I’m starting to really feel sorry for you. You only preach the side of the Gospel that keeps focusing on works, law and sin, not on the Good News:

   John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

   GAL 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14
   The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

   GAL 5:1a It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.

   HEB 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

   Rick’s statement of “It doesn’t matter what religious background you have” is talking about how all people are not Chrsitians when you meet them, but must be met where they are at in order that they may be brought the good news of being reconciled to God through Christ. He didn’t preach that all roads lead to Salvation, but that we must love our neighbors despite their religious faith.

   MT 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

   The Salvation Army and Rick’s Church are out the door active in prayer, donating and demonstrating love because Christ is in them. The impact for good and the message that Christ changes hearts is undeniable.

   What has your church, not just your pastor (because he does get out and speak), your congregation done in the community versus to your own students and congregation?

   Dec 16th, 2007

7. Danny Pelichowski

   R.C.,

   Peace and freedom come only to the person whom has been reconciled to God through Christ’s substitutionary death. Rick wants to give freedom and peace to those whom have yet to repent of sin and trust in Christ. People who have not repented are under God’s wrath! Rick speaks of peace and reconciliation without explaining where it comes from. I would ask if you can look into the eyes of an unbeliever and promise him peace, good news and happiness if he never repented of his sins and believed in Christ. I submit that this is exactly what Rick Warren does when presenting the message of “his gospel” to the world.

   One of the false doctrines that Warren and many other clueless Christian’s continue to preach is that God’s promises that are only applicable to God’s people are given freely to the unbeliever. Don’t get me wrong, God does save sinners! The promises of God can be applied to sinners and indeed they are for I am one of them. And the message of the Gospel as Drew so carefully and accurately outlined from scripture should be given to sinners for the hopes that God would save them. However, the audience that Warren is addressing is not a group of Christians who have been reconciled to God. He is addressing the people who browse through Wal-Mart shopping for Christmas gifts. R.C. you are so fast to defend Warren and condemn Drew as a Pharisee. I would be careful to think critically and look at scripture to define salvation. The message that Warren is giving to the masses is not the Gospel. Salvation, as outlined from scripture in Drew’s post is nowhere to be found in Warren’s message. Just because he used the word does not mean he correctly presented it to the unbelievers who will hear it.

   If anyone is going judged by God for error it is not Drew, it is Rick Warren for preaching a different Gospel that is just as heretical as that of the Mormon’s or Jehovah’s Witness’. Not only is Warren misleading unbelievers, he is also deceiving professing Christians to have assurance of salvation and peace with God without ever presenting them with the whole truth of the Gospel. Just think of the people that hear the so called “true meaning” of Christmas this season from Warren in the stores. Will they be presented with the Gospel? I would agree with Drew and many other discerning Christians that the masses flocking through Wal-Mart this season will hear nothing more than a new-age, self help, feel good message that will do no more than boost their ego at best.

   Dec 16th, 2007

8. Stephen Macasil

   Hi R.C., welcome back! We haven’t heard from you since, since…Oh yeah, since the last Rick Warren post. I see that you haven’t understood the Gospel yet. That’s too bad since it must be understood in order to believe. We’re still praying for you man; still praying that perhaps God may grant you repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 2:25)!

   Quick question, in your understanding (which I still contend is incorrect) of the “good news,” what is good about it? And, is “bad news” a necessary pre-condition for “good news” to be “good?”

   What are your thoughts on this?

   Dec 16th, 2007

9. Rich One

   Brothers and Sisters, this is a classic case of verse abuse that R.C. has done. He totally takes the verses and twists them to fit his strawman that he’s built. R.C., I highly recommend Dr. Morey’s CD set on Verse Abuse and maybe it would give you a clearer understanding of quoting Bible verses as well as bringing you Great Revelation. Let’s all continue to pray for Rick Warren to repent of his heresy and for those who are eating at his table,that they would understand the true meat of the gospel!

   Dec 17th, 2007

10. Stephen Macasil

    Rich, that’s one of my favorite CD sets. Everytime I read Acts 8, I can hear Morey’s voice in my head, saying, “Do you understand what you are reading?” Good recommendation! I second the motion!!! Link is here: http://shop.faithdefenders.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=267

    Dec 17th, 2007

11. Reformed Mama

    Aww…yes Reformed Mama must put in her two cents.

    I work for the Salvation Army and I could tell you some storieees! I am an on-call preschool teacher. True, there are some Salvation Army preschools that are partially government funded, not this one. It is private and yet what do we find? We have 2 Hindu teachers, 1 Muslim teachers, 2 Muslim aids, and 2 Catholic teachers!(we used to have a buddist teacher too!)

    I have spoken with my director many times about my concerns in having teachers with these false beliefs teaching our precious little ones The Word of God. She does not share my concern.

    Not one to stay silent, let’s just say higher ups have been informed of this matter. So far, nothing has been done and I have come to realize in my 4 years there that the Army is less interested in the “Salvation” part of Salvation Army and more interested in doing “good”.

    So, wierd as it is, they are my mission field…a place William Booth would not recognize today.

    I have gained the confidence of one of the Catholics and we have had many lively dicussions. Perhaps, by God’s grace, one day she will find freedom in Christ, our Lord and leave behind the bondage of the Roman church.

    Dec 18th, 2007

12. Will

    Dear Mama: Appreciated your input on the Salvation Army. Truly sad. But who can be surprised, with all the infiltration of falsehood going on. See Nassiri.com and click on the TBN link. Setting-up for Antichrist and/or False Prophet, in my humble opinion.

    Dec 18th, 2007

13. agogley

    Dear Mama:

    I see what you are experiencing pretty much everywhere. The biggest problem with evangelism for me is that everybody thinks they are already saved. They ridicule me and tell me that I am wrong because I think my “religion has all the answers.” Mormons, Catholics, and others all pretend to be talking about Christ as their savior and yet the differences are like night and day. I often feel exasperated and don’t always know what my answer should be. The cost of discernment is indeed high.

    Dec 19th, 2007

14. Becky

    From what i’ve heard of Rick Warren, and i admit i haven’t read The Purpose-Driven life (i saw it in my garage…maybe someday), it’s nothing bad, but nothing good either. Even in this message, it looks like he’s on the right track but is leaving out vital information, like why we need the good news. He leaves it open for interpretation, which is the real reason it’s so darn popular: people find exactly what they have been looking for because they can read into it whatever they like.

    By his and so many other trendy, pomo ministries, i am reminded of a scene from the Amazing Grace DVD (documentary, not movie) where someone is going around telling people that a cure for a fatal disease has been found. People acknowledge the news but don’t really care. Then they show people being told they have the disease. Oh how much more the news that a cure has been found is receipted! All you hear nowadays is good news, good news, good news. That knowledge isn’t even enough. Would the sick person get well by knowing there is a cure or would they have to take the medication, get the treatment, and whatever else is required to be healed? The same applies when people are only told there is good news without telling them the bad news or how to apply the good news.

    I know i know, a half-truth is no truth.

    Dec 20th, 2007

15. Reformed Mama

    Will,

    Have you ever heard Dr. Bob’s “slowly, slowly, catchy monkey”? That is what happened at my school. First there were only Christian employees, then only Christians could be teachers, but aids could be “other” and now we have “other” as teachers, teaching God’s Word to our 2-5 year olds!

    Nassiri.com… very disturbing!

    Agogley,

    Lean on God’s Word, always point to it…”Thy Word is truth”. Neither you, nor I, nor “religion” have all the answers but, we know the One who does, our Messiah.

    Being ridiculed is unpleasant. Six weeks ago my father (a “Christian”) pounded the table screaming at me that I “hit people over the head with the Bible”. He then “damned Sola Scriptura”. But, I will never back down because “Thy Word is TRUTH”!

    Let’s stand together…

    Dec 21st, 2007

16. agogley

    Reformed mama:

    thanks for the encouragement. You really know where people stand when they don’t want to hear what the Bible says. Itchy ears…

    Dec 21st, 2007

17. R. C.

    Grace and Peace be to you from our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I’m disappointed. Do you really dare question my salvation?

    If you didn’t intend to come across that way, than you should highly reconsider how judgmental you sound.

    I have listened to “verse abuse” years ago. That is why I’m surprised that Dr. Morey’s followers are so intent upon re-establishing the law and judging others by it by ignoring the verses about grace and freedom. Jesus was actually serious when he and his follwers said those verses I quoted.

    1 COl5:8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

    Your Gospel seems to be a message of hatred toward those who do not believe exactly as you do. In other words, you hate not what others believe, but hate them. Maybe it is easier to do that than to actually love people who don’t initially think the same thing as you exactly.

    A different issue is the one I pointed out to you before, that you confuse salvation with sanctification, and thus end up ousting all sorts of people who are saved Christians because they may choose to worship differently.

    You may not do what you think is wrong, for example “speak in toungues” or “handle snakes” or “sprinkle” when you should “dip”. But your pride and self-righteousness is more evident and insidious and evil—separating you from God’s love and your display of it as light of the world although I believe you are indeed saved. So it’s sad you sit around judging others still on non-salvation issues.

    COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    You are accusers. And thus God must answer you on each accusation.

    First, we must recognize we are sinners in order to be saved from sin. Rick’s church does that. We then must recognize from whom the salvation comes. Rick’s church preaches Jesus.

    It’s important to pause here and specifically address the comment “RW is preaching a gospel just as heretical as Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons”. This is patently false.

    Let us compare.

    JW’s do not preach grace alone, nor do they have the right Jesus. To them he is the archangel Michael. Mormon’s teach works as well and believe the first lie of the messenger Satan—that they will be like gods, in this case of their own planet. The angel Moroni said so. Catholics have the same issue as the cults. Belief is that being asscociated with a guy or group of guys—Pope, saints and angels—who have purer revelation from God will save them.

    Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

    In contrast:

    RW preaches the trinity, the right Jesus, and God’s grace.

    He preaches the use of “crooked sticks to draw straight lines”, as Dr. Morey would say.

    So RW’s style isn’t as scholarly as Dr. Morey. It’s the executive bullet-point presentation on Sunday for sure. Overview, yes. False Gospel. No.

    Counter to your requirements of scholarship for Salvation, Jesus doesn’t require that anyone even be smart, let alone articulate.

    You can be retarded and on a desert island with one of Rick’s followers and still receive the Gospel of sin through man but Salvation through God’s only son, Christ. Or in the case described above, you could even be (shame of shame) a WalMart shopper!

    Heb 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

    RW doesn’t require the WalMart purchaser or the retard to be a member of Saddleback or to give to the Salvation Army bucket on the way out in order to be saved. He says they do need Jesus.

    If it’s true that RW preaches peace and freedom come without Christ, then why is his church equally criticized by non-believers as having all those “Jesus Freaks” who talk about “Jesus” all the time. You criticize for not talking about Jesus, they criticize for too much Jesus. the unbelievers are right, RW does preach salvation through repenting and accepting Christ.

    If they can hear the word, why can’t you? Because you are so proud and you want to be right. You want to make this an intellectual exercise where you can get a feeling that you are superior to other Christian beleivers. That your “truth” is “more true” because you follow the one truer teacher.

    And yes, the message of amazing grace is “enough”. Grace is sufficient. God even provides the gift of discernment to those he chooses to “grace” with it.

    COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

    Reformed Mama-I’m so sorry that you feel you need to correct, fix, change and rescue people like your dad. But it is God who does the work for his own good pleasure. You are to be prepared with a defense of why you believe what you beleive, but deliver it in love only when God opens the doors to those who are already called by Him. Otherwise, you’re like a clanging cymbol, or a JW or Mormon who goes door to door thinking it is THEY who convert others. Do not steal God’s glory, grace and love from yourself or others. My guess is that your father has a point, he’s just not good at explaining how you make him feel unloved. That you are coming across without gentleness, care, or patience.

    Go and learn what it means: I require mercy, not sacrifice.

    It doesn’t surprise me considering the company you keep of “expert” judges of others beliefs on this site. But I can’t resist pointing out: It’s ironic you quote the “itching ears” and missed the context of the entire passage as it applies to yourself and your delivery.

    2TI 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

    I know that God will eventually move you all if he chooses, to reconcile to your brothers in the faith at Saddleback Church. Do not be confused. Much of the New Testament was written because the church had saved believers who were still not sanctified, yet they were saved. You must understand the difference and that you are to go to your brother and reconcile yourselves before you commune.

    Don’t sit over there and actually believe you are “more saved” than me.

    That’s just silly. I say again, how foolish you look.

    BTW. The Salvation Army was there when I needed them and gave shelter to me and my kids. Again, God uses who he wants to to help who he wants to to bring Glory out of what was intended for evil. Do you have a shelter program?

    Dec 26th, 2007

18. R. C.

    I’ve attached a link to Saddleback’s “Statement of Faith” please let me know what you think is scripturally inaccurate.

    Also, if you are praying for me, what are you praying for? Accuracy? Repenting? Where would you be directing me to in order that I can be as good as you?

    Dec 26th, 2007

19. agogley

    R.C.:

    I’m somewhat confused by your post. IMO, it looks like you are lashing out at everyone who posted prior to you. You appear to direct the first part of your post (and your follow up post) to Macasil and then the second part of your post to Reformed Mama. And yet you make a reference to “itching ears”, something that appeared in my post and wasn’t at all related to the main point of this blog.

    Nobody said anything about failing to provide shelter, food, etc. to needy people. What Reformed Mama discussed was the apparent movement of the SA away from presenting the gospel along with such relief. Certainly God can use evil for good as you say, but God’s power is hardly an excuse for us to continue in our own failures.

    Your quote of Hebrews 5:12 appears to be antithetical to your point. That passage was a rebuke to the Hebrews for failing to make improvements in knowledge which might have made them capable of looking into the more abstruse and mysterious parts of scripture. Matthew Henry in his commentary on the passage, relates that the condition was a “sinful infirmity.” The whole point of this passage is that the Hebrews are lazy and should have moved onto more complex areas of theology instead of having the basic message of repentance and salvation preached over and over. You quoting this passage is somewhat apropos considering that this the biggest complaint facing the seeker sensitive churches.

    Speaking of repentance, I haven’t seen to much of Rick Warren preaching on that subject. Sometimes omission is much a lie as what you do say. I attended a seeker-friendly church once. The doctrinal statement was extremely similar (probably because it was modeled after Willow Creek). There was no overt problem with the doctrinal statement. The services, of course, were geared to entertain and bring in an unbeliever. It was the hope that somewhere, somehow they would be given the gospel and possibly become a believer. And of course, once you gave a decision for Christ you were asked to serve the Church is some capacity. Lots of people served (although it was still a minority of regular attenders). There were ministries up the whazoo. But nowhere did the local Church follow up in making “authentic followers of Christ”, which was it’s stated mission. There were few opportunities for in depth Bible study or any teaching on advanced doctrine. And when there were opportunities, their certainly were no expectations placed on believers to attend. Because of this, the church was filled with sinful behavior which the leadership refused to address. Anybody can claim they believe in Jesus. But certainly, this faith should be followed by regeneration and progressive sanctification. And if the leadership of the church isn’t teaching these aspects of the believer’s walk in Christ, shouldn’t they be rebuked?

    Finally, I have to wonder why you are defensive on the issue of Rick Warren. He isn’t just criticized by us here but by a number of reformed believers including people like John MacArthur. The conversation here has seemingly provoked you to anger. Your last post is implicity mocking Macasil. Is it possible that the truth presented here has struck a cord with you and instead of accepting and embracing it, you are fighting it? Just a thought for your consideration.

    Dec 26th, 2007

20. R. C.

    http://www.saddleback.org/flash/believe2.html

    Agogely-

    My dear brother in Christ. Though humbled by your extensive vocabulary, I will make an attempt to respond.

    Let me answer you specifically so you do not claim confusion.

    Apparently you are not very confused, because you rightly divided up my responses to each of the people commenting.

    I’m not defending RW per se, he could be any pastor who spreads the Gospel, but not as you’d prefer it. But he just happens to be the target you all are attempting to hit, (perhaps because God has blessed his ministry more than your own? Is envy part of your confusion—pride that you deserve to be blessed more for your superior discernment and yet the Lord withholds attendance?)

    Do not misconstrue anger as disrespect. I have said repeatedly you brothers are clearly saved also.

    However, I’m angry at lies and false preaching that keeps believers separate from each other. This is anger which is scripturally appropriate and considered loving. More accurate I am frustrated and grieved at the biblicalthought site’s waste of energy toward attacking a fellow believer and the ignorance that propels it.

    But I’m not so far as angry at you as your sin as a group of pride and self-righteousness among other sins.

    Equally I’m not so angry as to be unreasonable or inaccurate about my points of rebuke. I believe they are sound.

    Face it, you’d all just sit and agree with each other if you didn’t get any outside perspective. Your encounters are often those who are ignorant and unsaved, OR know they are saved, but cannot yet joust intellectually with the finer points of doctrine. They don’t satisfy you. YET they are indeed still saved.

    Which is my point about RW and his saved followers.

    There are lies of comission, and lies of omission. I don’t believe RW is doing either.

    I think you all are picking on him when he preaches one topic, before he covers another topic. The full topic is complete and on the website. (link above) There are bible studies at Saddleback that go from milk to meat during the week. (Adressing my point and yours from Heb.)

    I must ask you, what does an authentic follower of Christ look like to you? Has he stopped sinning entirely? Does he sin, then ask for forgiveness? Does he then “sin no more”?

    Were the 7 churches in the book of Revelation worthy of being called believers with as screwed up as they were? These were the first and closest to Christ’s lifetime. Many of them met Him. Were they perfect on all doctrines? How about behavior? Did they also have unbelievers in their midst? Wasn’t it a minority of regular attenders doing most things at that time as well?

    Finally, do you in all honesty believe that your church is absent of sinful behavior? Are your leaders free from sin? Have they addressed all major sin in your congregation and rid the place?

    If so, then why are you still there?

    Rebuking is fine. But what the scripture stresses is encouraging one another in love. Part of that is indeed encouraging other believers away from blatant sinning. Much as I am encouraging you all by rebuking you. (Let those who have ears hear it.)

    Stop pretending you are superior and you can join in fellowship with other lowly believers. Edify others not just in speech but in action.

    Go up to Saddleback and lead a Bible Study. Admonish their leaders if God has put that on your heart.

    What makes a church is belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus who forgives sin.

    God does plenty of rebuking in the hearts and minds of those who believe in Him by God’s own grace and mercy. But when others are on some remote website start spreading gossip and slander about RW or believers at his church, it is entirely appropriate to give a defense accompanied by a rebuke back to the slanderers.

    1PE 2:1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

    JAS 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you–who are you to judge your neighbor?

    TIT 3:1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.

    15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

    Dec 27th, 2007

21. agogley

    R.C.:
    “Apparently you are not very confused, because you rightly divided up my responses to each of the people commenting.”
    Perhaps not. However, I did make an effort to allow you an opportunity for clarification because you used something I said completely out of context. You made reference to “itching ears” which was a quote from my post which was not directed towards the Salvation Army or Rick Warren. Furthermore, you really tend to lump us all together despite the altogether different tone and content of our posts.
    I have a couple bones to pick, before I address the underlying issue. First, you say “(perhaps because God has blessed his ministry more than your own? Is envy part of your confusion—pride that you deserve to be blessed more for your superior discernment and yet the Lord withholds attendance?)” but then later say “Equally I’m not so angry as to be unreasonable or inaccurate about my points of rebuke. I believe they are sound.” You don’t think that implying that the source of my criticism (or others here) is due to envy of Saddleback’s attendance is an unreasonable intimation? Pardon me for being a bit harsh, but your comment reminds me of a rabid dog lashing indiscriminately at shadows.
    “Face it, you’d all just sit and agree with each other if you didn’t get any outside perspective. Your encounters are often those who are ignorant and unsaved, OR know they are saved, but cannot yet joust intellectually with the finer points of doctrine. They don’t satisfy you. YET they are indeed still saved” Really?! Pray tell, upon what is your conclusion merited? You rebuke us for slander and yet vituperate us based on mere speculation?
    I’ll press on as I do not desire to belabor these side issues. Your central rebuke is for slandering Rick Warren. While it is true that I cannot sit and pronounce judgment on Saddleback Church or Rick Warren per se, I do believe that I am qualified to express concern over Warren’s theology and spiritual condition. I haven’t personally been to Saddleback Church. I cannot judge men’s hearts including that of Rick Warren. However, I have read accounts from many others who either attended Saddleback or visited it. I also personally attended a seeker sensitive church that was based on the identical model as that of Saddleback. It based on what I have seen and heard from others, as well as personally experienced in a similar church that I claim to be qualified to express concern over Warren’s theology and spiritual condition.
    I’ll stop short of calling Warren a heretic. It’s true that his books, messages, and various columns are very simplistic and fluffy, and when looking at them with an undiscerning eye, you don’t immediately see anything overtly contrary to the gospel. Most of his messages, as I mentioned previously, aren’t necessarily incorrect in what is disseminated but rather in what is lacking. However, there are a few of his writings, that when examined closely, contain cause for alarm.
    For example, in about February/March of 2005, Warren wrote a column for the Ladies Home Journal. You’d think this would be an excellent opportunity for a self-professing Christian and Theologian to present the gospel. Did Warren present a clear, concise and accurate portrayal of true Christianity and the path to salvation? No. Instead his article mirrored pop psychology. His message in that article can be summed up into five points: Accept Yourself, Love Yourself, Be True To Yourself, Forgive Yourself, Believe in Yourself. Noticeably lacking is any mention of sin, repentance, Jesus, the cross or anything else distinctly Christian. The God he writes about could be consistent with the theology of New Spirituality, Muslim, or Mormon theology. Unfortunately, in this case, I cannot say that such failure is the only fault. His article contains blatantly anti-Christian theology! Warren relates that God accepts us unconditionally and doesn’t demand perfection. God does not accept us unconditionally. If He did, there would have been no need for Jesus to die. And God does expect perfection from us. Matthew 5:48 says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” God expects and demands absolute perfection from us. While none of us deliver, thus requiring infinite amounts of grace and forgiveness, this in no way reduces the requirement.
    I don’t know if Rick Warren is knowlingly New Age in his teaching. However, it seems clear that what he teaches, and what so many others mimic in his teaching, is not distinctly Christian. As believers we need to ensure that we do not mask the truth of the gospel message in vague, inoffensive language. The gospel message is clear and will often be offensive to unbelievers! To remove the gospel from our message, is to leave ourselves with no message at all.
    I have one last qualm with Warren. Whenever he does claim to reference the Bible, he uses whatever translation makes his point clearest, regardless of accuracy to the original text. He isn’t alone here, as the seeker church I once attended followed the same pattern in using multiple verses from multiple versions to support a topical sermon. Of course, nobody but my wife and I (I’m exaggerating here but probably not by a whole lot) had a Bible to look up the verses to see if they were used in context. The points made in the sermon weren’t un-Biblical per se, but the Bible verses are used out of context. This approach is not Biblical and in fact, promotes the introduction and growth of heresy. The Bible indicates that teachers should be “accurately handling” Scripture. Rick Warren hasn’t done this.
    Now I have presented a reasonable basis for my criticism of Warren and Saddleback. You may disagree with the conclusions based on the evidence, but my criticism is hardly malicious or defamatory.
    I will add that when I was a member of the seeker sensitive church I did try to teach and present Biblical topics to others in the church. I recall one incident when I tried to convince the church to show a documentary that showed that certain musical artists were intentionally presenting anti-Biblical themes and lyrics in their music. After watching the documentary at another church, I bought my own copy. I invited two different pastors on two different occasions to view the documentary at my home. After viewing it, the pastors felt they could not show it to the congregation, not because they weren’t persuaded that they had seen the truth, but that they were afraid that it might cause people to take action (such as getting rid of their CDs or worse, making their children get rid of their CDs). On other occasions I spoke out against attending interfaith services for 9-11 and asked serious questions about teaching only the LaHaye authorized version of eschatology. I can tell you that I wasn’t well received and ultimately left the church. Now I attend a Reformed church who cares about God’s Word.
    Here are the verses I use to support the accurate use of Scripture (NASB):
    2 Timothy 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”
    Titus 1:9 “holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict…”
    Here is one example of a visit to Saddleback that I use for my basis: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/warren/visit.htm

    Dec 28th, 2007

22. agogley

    I apologize for the formatting of the post. You can’t really tell what it will look like until after it posts.

    Dec 28th, 2007

23. R. C.

    Thank you for stating that RW is not a heretic. That is my point.

    Also, it is good you agree that you cannot confirm RW’s spiritual condition or that of his followers. That was another point I had.

    It seems you are also saying that you found a church that suits your needs better than your old church. Good for you, I say. Each church had strengths and weaknesses, I’m sure the church you are in is weak on ministries, and values intellect over many other dimentions of the spirit, as wellas being weak in financial management.

    So you see, watch the rafter in your own eye.

    And please reach out to combine your strengths with the strengths other believers at Saddleback, rather than working to be divisive.

    God demands perfection, but it is not achieved on any merits of our own. God works and wills. Nobody’s perfect.

    Jan 1st, 2008

24. Reformed Mama

    Thanks Agogley, for coming to my defense Dec. 26 (RC)! You were certainly correct about the point of my comments.

    R.C.,
    No comments regarding SA’s hiring Hindu, Buddist or Muslim teachers…just attacks on my character? Not worried about the “least of these”…just worried that I might be a “clanging symbol”?

    My father has been a Christian for 40 years and still doesn’t view the Bible as FINAL authority…I always have Scripture for what I do, how I worship, what I believe, etc…that is why he is angry! He is not someone I am trying to “convert”! He is already “saved”. What he would like me to do is stop saying that praying to the dead, venerating icons and belief that one can “become God” are wrong! Shall I back down from these? Never!!

    I’m glad the SA has helped you in the past, they have helped me as well…by giving me a job! This does not mean ungodly things don’t happen there…they do.

    Do I “have a shelter”? If God wills it, I’ll be His vessel.

    Jan 1st, 2008

25. Stephen Macasil

    RC, I would be interested in this: “And please reach out to combine your strengths with the strengths other believers at Saddleback, rather than working to be divisive.”

    What would you suggest that I do? You have mentioned this in various ways several times here. I would be interested in doing this.

    Jan 1st, 2008

26. agogley

    RC,

    You grasped only a small portion of my point. My point wasn’t only that I couldn’t judge RW’s heart. My point in its entirety was that although I cannot judge the heart, there are enough indicators to cause me to be concerned about both RW and his congregation. Enough to question not only the theology but regeneration. Furthermore, I believe that the seeker sensitive church will deceive more than it will save and this in and of itself, is enough to warrant a sharp rebuke.

    And again, I’m going to have to chastise you for your ungainly assumptions. You’re sure that my church “values intellect over other dimensions of the spirit” and “is weak on ministries????” Really?! You’ve been there? You really don’t want to compare the health of my church vs. Saddleback. Saddleback would lose badly, very badly.

    Lastly, you seem to be very set on good works, as if that is the end all. I agree that faith is followed by works, but works in and of themselves mean nothing. Mormons have more ministries than Saddleback. Does that mean they are saved? I’ll leave you with some verses from Matthew:

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

    Jan 3rd, 2008

27. R. C.

    Crimany. I’ve been talking about how God does the good works through people for his own glory and asking you what outreaches you have, and yes I’ve been to your church and it’s weak in those areas, strong in apologetics, weak in the applications of love and othering, finances, and growing the congregation.

    OK. Combining strengths. I would suggest contacting Saddleback to have Dr. Bob speak. I would suggest working in one of the ministries there. I would suggest going to one of the group studies. Getting deeper into the church will get you into scuba and past snorkel at Saddleback.

    Jan 11th, 2008

28. R. C.

    Specifically on the Mormons, their bad works outweigh the good ones, and again, it’s clear they have doctrines of demons.

    RW preaches the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

    Jan 11th, 2008

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