biblicalthought.com

Calvinism is definitely a very important doctrine that, if not overlooked or waved away, is not allowed to impact our lives once believed. That is a great point Dr. Morey makes because I feel that many Calvinists are only affected cognitively by God’s greatness.

I’m happy to live with “tension” though and recognize that there are many verses in the Bible that are difficult to reconcile the with systematic theology category of Calvinism. That’s fine with me, God’s word should cause us to pause before we proclaim that we have it completely figured out.

And besides the verses that I think cause tension, I also think there are verses used by Calvinists that have no such aim in the context. See the bottom of my blog (http://abeatenpath.blogspot.com [is that "on-topic" enough mod]) for an example of this.

But of course, as I like to say anachronistically, “Jesus was a Calvinist.” haha.

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Great topic for discussion brother! I was blind to this doctrine the first 6 years of my salvation due primarily to being in one of the big Arminian churches locally where is was forbidden to be taught or discussed. This led me to an uneasiness and finally to leaving that church in mid 2001 and shortly after 9/11/2001 the Lord introduced me to Dr. Bob at a David Hocking study. Oh what a blessing to meet and sit under an educated teacher that rightly divides the Word of God! That can exegete the Word and then teach the Word in proper context – praise the Lord!
Keep up the good work!

I’m going to take a shot at it. Truth is truth because it’s true, whether it works of me or doesn’t work for me, it remains true. Sense we are quoting Dr Bob, “If it’s new it’s not true and if it’s true it’s not new” So, Scripture worked (so to speak) before Calvin systematized it. That was my shot

Great discussion! As a former Calvary Chapel attendee, sooner or later I found out I was being fake! I could not live what I believed! I was miserable! The Doctrines of Grace brought right thinking to the mind and instantly empowered me to trust in the Savior securely! Not my works but all of His! He is our all in all!

The challenge is to approach the average evangelical to observe Scripture. We must be careful to not approach them with “Calvinism,” or “Reformed Theology.” I’d like to hear from those who oppose these out of fear. I was told by a pastor once to stay away from “theology” because I had a “weak” mind and it would ruin me. I found it made my “weak” mind strong! My mind is weak, but the Scripture tells us we have the mind of Christ! This makes us rock solid because we put our ultimate trust in Him!

Im in the same boat as you Mario.

I have talked with my friends and former roomates that still attend CC and one thing you really cant bring (except case by case) the words reformed or calvinism to the table, they will not listen. Its at trigger from pastors that was put into them, but if you approach them in the light of scripture and use good exegisis they will listen and also if you ask them questions and make them think on thier own. I do know CC believes in Sola Scriptura but a lot of them believe with out knowladge, just by what thier pastor says.

I came out of CC because of the same reasons, first the position on Israel, I didnt find it in scripture. Second was Election, and Gods knowladge, i couldnt scripturally except that God looked down the corridor of time to see who would or wouldnt choose him.

I was warned by a pastor as well, not to try and study the Bible to much, cause it could mess me up. WOW!!! I thought, are you kidding me. Another one was don’t talk to the cults about the Bible, because they could steer you, away from the truth. I thought, if I have the Holy Spirit, how could I be driven from the truth. But I will say, that these two words (doctrines), were my last hurdle, to a fuller understanding.
My bother-in-law and I, were talking this weekend about Reformed Theology. A lot of people we know that go to Reformed Churches or have meet, are former CCers. I still have family there, in fact my b-i-l still goes there. He doesn’t agree with everything there, but he still goes.

I have to admit it is hard for me to find a Church to go to. The formality of reformed Churches reminds me to much of my childhood memories of the Roman Church. I love the hymns, the contemporary songs are to repetitive. Then you have the modern Gospel sings, like, God come full this God shaped whole in my heart. The you have the weak alter calls, “if you want to receive Jesus, just come down to the front or you’d like to join the Church”. I’m not an alter call person, but if you are going to do one. At least explain, what sin is and where that places you a sinner, before a Holy God And His wrath. I have a hard time, with reading written prayers. I would think that a person with the Holy Spirit in his life, could pray on his own, to glorify God. I haven’t been to every Reformed Church in town so, my quest goes on.

As far as people not wanting to here about these glorious doctrines of God. It’s because they’ve meet some pagan, that thinks he/she is one of the elect, so they can live like the devil and still make heaven their home, they think. I’ve meet them before myself, to the point that they would go to night clubs, with the pastors and elders. Telling stories of how they would pick up women and take them home, after having consumed adult beverages with the Church leadership.

I have to thank a man that owns a book store where I live. Who over the years, tried to guide me to good solid teaching. He would order some weird books that I wanted to read, because they were recommend by the organization I was a part of, before my CC years. He would give me some thing to think about, when I pick these books up or when ordering them. Then I started reading some of the books he recommended, and they were deep. What I was looking for in these, way wave of books, were very shallow compared to the teachings of Reformed writers. One of the books that helped me, was “Here is your God”, by Dr Bob.

I thank God, that He chose me, because there are times when I don’t feel so chosen. I can do some stupid things at times. I’m so grateful that my salvation is because of what He has done and not on what I do.

I was told by a pastor that too much Bible study makes your soul weary. I am not certain, but given the situation I suspect he was using it as an excuse not to study much. When I challenged that awkward-sounding statement he told me that it was in the Bible. Looking back, I see that he was misquoting Solomon in Ecclesiastes 12:12.

Travis,

Thanks again for your service and sacrifice! God willing, with the New Reformation, many will come to see the Doctrines of Grace and be freed to see the Lord Jesus Christ in all His greatness!

Johnny B,

You mentioned that some Reformed churches reminded you of the memories of Roman Catholic church. I would agree. I had visited a church in Carson, CA and gave me that impression. It seemed as though the Spirit was hindered or bound. Music was sung from the Psalter only. People would sit and stand. I remember a grim reading of the law. It was difficult to think this would be what I had to look forward to as a Reformed Christian.

When I found out about Faith Community, it was a different experience. The greatest change was getting used to the hymns. I was more moved by the music and lyrics. I thought hymns were dull coming from Calvary Chapel, however, when I learned to sing with understanding, my love and appreciation for the hymns exploded!

I have to say that I have not experienced fellowship in the Spirit as I have at Faith Community Church. The testimony of my pastor and his family as servants of Christ as biblical as it comes! We have one thing clear. We are sinners who will fail each others expectations and violate each other’s rights at times. Our hope is not put in man, but on the ultimate man Jesus Christ our Lord, who is our righteousness! The One who has never failed us! We press on together as a body because Christ is our all in all! I get excited and ask the Lord to help us keep in mind the fact that all we will ever be are bond slaves of the Lord Jesus! We have been taken captive by Messiah and we exist to glorify Him and enjoy Him forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In order to see God do great things, we will attempt great things for God!

Is there anyone out there that has an objection to the Election or Predestination? We want to hear from our Arminian friends….

It astounds me at how biblical doctrine such as Election and Predestination, are violently hated or disregarded by professing Christians (and thus tip-toed around by biblical Christians for fear of causing a kerfuffle).

Those who “accept” these two doctrines, generally redefine them down to a man-centered theology, at best. The problem is, these doctrines don’t have man at its center, but God alone (Eph. 1 has “He”, “Him”, and “His” 21 times, referring to God–not counting “God” and “Jesus Christ” in that chapter). HE is the center of our Gospel and Salvation and the One Who makes it happen for HIS glory. That’s a GOOD thing!

What pains me too, is that rejection of these doctrines is really a rejection of the lordship of the Lord. Election and Predestination clearly reveal God’s sovereignty and power,mercy, love, patience, and faithfulness. And that faithfulness is to Himself first (fulfilling His plan and His promises: 2Peter 3:9;Eph. 1:11; Titus 1:2). This is truly a cause for praising HIM.

I believe professing Christians who deny (either outright or by redefining the terms to be that God looked to man to decide whom to save, etc.) cannot truly be humble before the Master, because they think they are 1) the center of God’s actions and Gospel, and 2) God was dependant at some point on them, waiting, even hoping, for them to make that “final choice” (this man-centered view of God can lead to Open Theism).

This robs God of ALL glory and robs men of ALL humility.

Eph 1:4 even as HE chose us in HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before HIM. In love 5 HE predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of HIS will, 6 to the praise of HIS glorious grace, with which HE has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11 In HIM we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of HIM who works all things according to the counsel of HIS will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of HIS glory.

Denise!!

I love that. “Someone with a low view of Scripture WILL have a low view of man.”

That is exactly correct! This may very well be the reason these sorts of men lord it over the people and abuse them. Ultimately, not really shepherding over them as those who watch over their souls!

Jean,

I would agree with you to a point. It would be far better to pray that God opens the eyes of the people and draws them to Himself. For Osama, the immediate response is damn him, however, what if that would have been the case with Paul the Apostle? May we pray Osama be converted and become a Paul for the glory of God!

Denise, here’s a couple of more that fall in line with those Scriptures.

1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Mario, my quest to find a good fellowship goes on. I’ve been hearing of a few, where I live. That aren’t as formal, one that falls along the lines of Wayne Grudem and Sam Strom, when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit. I believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today. I also believe that 95-99.99% of what goes on in Churches, when it comes to tongues and interpretation, is fake. I’ve has times where I’ve sensed the Spirit, giving my a word for someone. I’ve had times when the Spirit has given me discernment about someone and it played out the way the Spirit showed me. Does this happen every day, no, but it has happened. The idea, that speaking in tongues, give you some type of power, is ridicules to me. I know people that speak in tongues in every service they go to and have not grown in Christ in the last 15 years.

Anyway my quest goes on, maybe someday, I can visit F.C.C.

Denise, first let me applaud you for being the first in this forum to use the word “kerfuffle.” Second, let me (and probably others) thank you for once again chiming in with machine-gun magazines full of Scripture and exhortation. We are blessed, sister!

A “high” view of Scripture, I would argue, is the norm for the Christian Religion. Sadly, as we are surrounded by swarms of “low” view-ists, we must use the modifying adjective “high” to denote and contrast our view from what is the apparent “norm.”

I pray that one day before Christ returns, we are granted the monolithic view of Scripture that Jesus and the Apostles had - “high.” By grace, we may one day be able to look back to those dark ages when certain “Christian leaders” (Moreland, Koukl, Willard, et al.) shoved Scripture into the trunk of the car underneath the spare tire and wonder how such a dark period ever existed.

Amen, Stephen, May God grant, indeed!

Don’t forget the golf clubs in that trunk of the pastors with the good looks, gift of gab & guitar.

OverCommiTad2theWord, the big leather bag of golf clubs act as just one of multiple obstacles to ensure that before Scripture is ever consulted, the big golf bag, the toolbox, the trunk carpeting, the twist off spare tire cover, the jack, etc., are all blocking the Word - it’s just too much work!

I’d add that it’s only by God’s Grace that I stumbled upon Dr. Morey a couple years ago. Being under his tutelage and being able to associate with you fellow brothers here keeps me from drowning.

May the eyes of the heart of the people who read the truth of Scripture be enlightened!

In looking at Ephesian 1, it is an amazing passage on the blessings that are ours because of our union with Messiah.

Today’s modern evangelicals see man in some sort of “neutral” state. Having the word in all its glory, the very mind of Christ, to lead us into the great things of God, the vast majority of Christians want to hold to a view of Scripture that originates in the mind of fallen man.

It is clear from this passage in Ephesians 1 that Paul begins with God the Father! It is of great importance to acknowledge the work of the Triune God of Scripture! It is arrogant of a human to think that these blessings became his when he chose God. It is utterly repudiating, a stench to even think that way (I understand, I once thought that way, I don’t forget from the foolishness God had delivered me from, and still is to this day!). Again Paul begins with God the Father in eternity! It is all of what God has done! Those precious promises He has given to us in His Son, and all that He is right now doing in us, and those things He will do! All of this was planned by the Father before the foundations of the world! It was not contingent upon an insignificant human soul “choosing” Him.

Out of all those who are now in eternity, on the broad road that has led to destruction, here we are in real time history accomplishing those good works He prepared for us to walk in, by His grace alone! We are enjoying, communing, with God the Father, through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, by the Power of the Holy Spirit!

Why? Because it all depended on me? Why have I not slipped into the depths of Hell? I deserve it everyday! I am perfect! Perfect in the fact that all I know how to do well is SIN! I was going to write that my sin is daily stacked against me, but I cannot say that any longer because Christ Jesus is my Lord, and for us have placed our hope and trust in Him as Lord, for us He has smothered the wrath of God forever!!!!!!!!
O’ what amazing thought! Let me just clarify the fact that we put our hope and trust in Him because that was the will of the Father from the foundation of the world! If I could express the outburst of praise deep in my soul when I think of this blessed thought………..MMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All I can say is Bless the LORD O my Soul!

Lord use us! Use us as your soldiers to send this message out to those Christians who are longing to know you more! Lord, we ask this because You alone are worthy! Praise you alone that we can sing like the hymn writer said,

My sin O the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin not in part but the whole, is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more, praise the Lord, praise the Lord O my soul!!!!!

It is well with my soul!

May I just say, I love the body of Christ! Just as Paul said in Philippians, we are all partakers together! “For God is my witness how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.”

May we be motivated unto holiness! Paul continues in the passage, “only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by you opponents-which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His name’s sake, experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be true in me.” Philippians 1

Agogley said: “Being under his tutelage and being able to associate with you fellow brothers here keeps me from drowning.”

One of the amazing ways God uses the Internet for his glory: we’re in California, Agogley is in Texas (if I remember correctly), we’ve never met, yet we’re brothers in God’s family sharing koinonia fellowship in different time zones!

Where is everyone else from? Any other out-of-staters? Or, in Travis’ case, any non-US?

“Frank, are you saying that election is conditioned on a foreseen response? I want to make sure I’m following your argument” (Stephen Macasil).

Yes. God foreknew who would be a babe and who would be worldy wise. He chose the babes.

We see this in our Lord’s call at Matthew 11:28: “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (NKJV). This call and promise were addressed, not to everybody, but to the heavy laden. Thus, we see a sovereign, conditional choice.

Stephen, I’m in West Virginia (not western Virginia).

I appreciate the resources provided by Faithdefenders and this blog. It truely has been a blessing. While I’m working at my computer I’m able to listen to Dr. Bob’s study of Romans. I’m getting a double dose of this study as I’m also studying it with a group at our pastor’s home each Wed. night. This was the book that changed Luther.

In researching my family history I’ve learned that my family were Lutherans actually going back into the 1500’s. When they came to America they became Primative Baptist >WCG >Church of Christ > and now, as I mentioned previously, I’m attending a PCA church. It seems we’ve come full circle back to the reformed faith by God’s providence.

Frank, can you clarify, what foreknowledge, means to you? When you say conditional, do you mean, He sees our choice or response, down the halls of time, from eternity, then elects us on that foreknowledge?

I’m new to this forum and am finding all this very interesting. So then, Stephen, is your position (and is that Dr. Morey’s?) that God chose some and not others, based upon his own desires, purposes,etc.? And that for those he did choose, he did not choose them based upon His knowing their future response of acceptance of Him? That our role in all this was just passive bystanders, so-to-speak?

I’ve just started looking into predestination and election and cannot say that I have any clear understanding of it yet.

Hi Stephen,

Yes and no - a truly Morey type response. The question framed by Wayne is wrong.

All are completely dead. It is rooted in Genesis 3:5 and Romans 5:12-18. Thus nobody chooses God. Nobody seeks God. (Rom 3:10-12). God via His mercy chooses among the dead ones who are kicking their feet against God’s decrees.

So the question should be why does God choose anybody so evil and dead. Because of his mercy. His mercy and wrath are both relavant, thus whom He chooses among the graves is a righteous act.

Jean Cauvin

Wayne, to get the better understanding of these teachings, we need a better understanding of God’s nature, that’s what turned the light on for me. Forget what you’ve hear about TULIP or don’t understand about it. Once I understood, His eteranl nature, it opened my eyes to lot of things, that I didn’t understand, before.

Thanks Stephen, I already had Jean pegged for what he is, so I ignore him anyway. He only seems interested in winning discussions and displays his insecurity in the process.

Wayne, I just want you to feel welcome here. He doesn’t represent us, he’s not part of our ministry, and I didn’t want you to assume that he speaks for us. We rebuke his behavior, yet we will welcome him back if he shows himself to be repentant. Since Dr. Morey has been on A.M. radio stations in the past (Bob Morey LIVE!), he attracts alot of those late night A.M. radio conspiracy-theory-types. He also attracts the seminar rats (a loving term that we have given to the conference junkies!). So, moving forward - be prepared for more. By their fruits…

So did you think about the second answer I gave to the question you asked?

P.S. we all get carried away in our behavioral discipline or lack thereof. We judge a wo/man by how and when they return from the momentary behavioral apostasy.

This place has changed its attitude a lot, still passionate, but more invitive to people who want to come in, I think its great that we can be kind and passionate and corrective without calling names and being prideful, so keep it up, all, there is a time for different actions and you guys and girls are having that discernment.

Very encouraging

Roger that, Stephen. I had to restrain myself in my response : )

If it is true that we had nothing to do with being chosen by God, then I assume it follows that I still have to respond to His call. That if He is standing at the door knocking, and if I hear Him, then it is up to me to “answer the door.” But then, was it not He who put the desire in me in the first place to answer the door when he knocks?

Wayne, I think your understanding is better than you realize. Let me give you a helpful little chart from page 196 of “Studies in the Atonement” by Dr. Robert Morey. There are five points illustrating the difference between “regeneration” and “conversion.” These (in my view) are very important distinctions to make. Here they are:

1. Regeneration: God is active while man is passive.
Conversion: Both God and man are active.

2. Regeneration: God regenerates man in his inner being on his unconscious level.
Conversion: Conversion takes place on man’s conscious level.

3. Regeneration: Regeneration is hidden and private, taking place unseen within man.
Conversion: Conversion is open and public as well as inward.

4. Regeneration: No response from man included in regeneration.
Conversion: The response of faith and repentance included in conversion.

5. Regeneration: No man is ever said to regenerate a sinner. Only God can “recreate,” “give birth to,” or “raise from spiritual death” sinners.
Conversion: A believer can be said to “convert” sinners in the limited sense of the validity of the secondary cause or agent (Psa. 51:13; Jm. 5:19-20).

More to chew on!

Frank, did you miss my response to you (about 16-17 comments up)?

Also, if that is your argument (1 Tim. 1:12-13), are you willing to abandon it if it is shown to you that you have serious hermeneutical errors resulting in a serious erred interpretation?

Frank,

1. You clearly do not understand prevenient grace and have confused it with what some call common grace. Two separate things entirely. I will not take the time here to explain your errors, you must study for yourself. It does show however, that you have gulped down another’s error and have passed it on perhaps unknowingly.

2. If election is as you say, not of works (earned), but by grace (unearned), then you refute your own argument by saying election is based on the performance of man (works), not unconditional (grace). Appealing to Rom. 11:6 only strengthens the position you argue against, that election is purely by grace and nothing of man, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. Have you missed Paul’s logical argument that A cannot be A and non A at the same time?

3. Your argument from silence is invalid. Are you willing to say that election may be conditioned on man’s diet (since it nowhere says it isn’t)? It would be equally valid. Equally fallacious as well.

4. Re: “whom.” It is not wrongly assumed, Frank. Verse 28 has already established that “those” were those that were called according to His purpose, not according to His purpose AND… If you would like to bring this discussion to the technical level of the text and grammar, we can. So far, you are right only in identifying the pronoun. Your task becomes explaining how the pronoun (relative accusative masculine plural) can be used in the specific way you need it to in order to justify your position (which I am saying is unbiblical).

5. Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 1:12-13 reveals hermeneutical, exegetical, and logical fallacies. If you would like to discuss these, please lay out your exegesis and hermeneutics, and rework your arguments in light of these observations.

Here are just some of the verses that speak of election according to God’s will and not of man’s performance.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Romans 9:16 (esv)

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” Romans 10:20 (esv)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 (esv)

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake - Phil. 1:29 (esv)

Frank, yeah, I saw the html no no and knew right away the quotes disappeared<>. Use quotes, astericks, etc. We are working on animating the forum with blockquotes, emoticons, some cool tools, etc. Any Geeks out there have any recommendations (must be WP compatible)?

Good point Denise! However, I would dare say those pastors who have a low view of Scripture, will tend to have a low view of the the image of God in the sheep! That were depraved is automatic! Nothing good dwells in us but the grace of Christ!

Let’s see if I can make my point. There is a significant amount of worth in a human being because he or she is made in God’s image. Because of the evilotion based teaching out there, man is seen as more of an animal. As our pastor would say, in the Doctrines of Grace, you have to preach man up to realize he is not a mere animal.
When I evangelize, in addition to calling people to repentance, I like to tell them that they are made in God’s image, they have meaning, worth, value, and move on from there to minister to them.

A proper view of Scripture, specially in a pastor, will lead that shepherd to rule over his flock in a manner that glorifies God, as one who looks over the wellness of their soul. We need more pastors like this out there! Many who deny the Doctrines of Grace, election and predestination, are usually more interested in popularity and position. They want to be famous, have a huge congregation, and building. Usually, the sheep are not taught, but continually evangelized and deprived of solid biblical doctrine which teaches them what to believe and how to live.

Frank, if you read the pastoral letters, you’ll notice that he adds “mercy” to, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Which is the way he opens all of his other letters. I’ve heard and read, different ideas about this. It is interesting that, this passage of Scripture in talking about ministry, and he adds the word, mercy, here. I don’t see as talking about choosing, in the sense of election, unto salvation, but to the ministry.
Look at vss 8-11 “But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.”
After giving the purpose of the Law, for today. Paul brakes out in thanksgiving, after being reminded of what he was like before the Lord, consumed his life. Notice vs 11, “the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.” This is why he is braking out in this thanksgiving, then vs 13, look at vss 9-10, Paul did those things, I would consider, taking someone against their will, as kidnapping, which Paul did, in the book of Acts. Paul is reflecting on his past, in his brake out here. Verse 16, Paul explains why he received that mercy, “that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life”.
The teachings of predestination and election, are a great paradox. God’s full sovereignty in election and predestination. Man’s full responsibility, to have faith, believe and obey. Acts 13:48
“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” Those that were called, appointed, [s]elected, believed, it’s hard to turn this to man first, then God. Here’s one more passage of Scripture, Philippians 2:12-13 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Man’s responsibility “working out”, God is doing it, in us, “for His good pleasure”.
God’s choosing is not based on us, Deuteronomy 7:7 “The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples”
Ephesians 1:5, 9 “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, …….having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself”. It’s all God, we are responsible to obey as well. Understanding God’s eternal nature, helped me to understand, these teachings. Our election was in eternity, before time existed, so we couldn’t make a choose, that God would base our election on. Because we didn’t exist, when He made that choose, of us.
Here’s where that type of foreknowing can lead. Romans 8:28 “he did foreknow” 1 Peter 1:20 “was foreordained”, these re the same Greek word, “progino?sko?”. Romans 8:28, is talking about, our election, unto salvation. 1 Peter 1:20, is talking about the Christ. Was Jesus, foreknown as Christ, before the foundation of the world, or was He the Christ, base on what He did in His life? Both these foreknowing, are in eternity and work together, since our election is “in Him” Christ.

If my understanding is off, it will be corrected, especilly the, time, thing, by someone more knowledgeable the me. This was one of those things, that came to me while I was, looking up info.

Wayne:

I remember Diamond Bar well. One of my friends live there. We used to joke about how long it would take the city council to change the street signs to chinese.

*“1. You clearly do not understand prevenient grace and have confused it with what some call common grace …” (Stephen Macasil).*

As you say, only some people use the term “common grace.” I don’t want to go down a rabbit trail, which I think I’d be doing if we tried to pinpoint where common grace ends and prevenient grace starts.

*“2. If election is as you say, not of works (earned), but by grace (unearned), then you refute your own argument by saying election is based on the performance of man (works), not unconditional (grace). Appealing to Rom. 11:6 only strengthens the position you argue against, that election is purely by grace and nothing of man, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. Have you missed Paul’s logical argument that A cannot be A and non A at the same time?” (Stephen Macasil).*

I certainly recognize the law of contradiction. Clearly it applies to election, which can’t be simultaneously earned and unearned. It especially applies to grace (undeserved kindness) and mercy (undeserved leniency), which, by definition, are unearned. But we shouldn’t assume that what is unearned must be unconditional, nor should we assume that man’s meeting of a condition somehow partly pays for the thing that is of grace. Insisting that there can be nothing of man amounts to an all-or-nothing fallacy.

*“3. Your argument from silence is invalid. Are you willing to say that election may be conditioned on man’s diet (since it nowhere says it isn’t)? It would be equally valid. Equally fallacious as well” (Stephen Macasil).*

How can I be arguing from silence when believers are described as “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father”? (1 Peter 1:2). If any argument arises from silence, it’s that God, though all-knowing, elected some people without regard to foreknowledge of their thoughts, intents, and responses.

*“4. Re: ‘whom.’ It is not wrongly assumed, Frank. Verse 28 has already established that “those” were those that were called according to His purpose, not according to His purpose AND… If you would like to bring this discussion to the technical level of the text and grammar, we can. So far, you are right only in identifying the pronoun. Your task becomes explaining how the pronoun (relative accusative masculine plural) can be used in the specific way you need it to in order to justify your position (which I am saying is unbiblical)” (Stephen Macasil).*

Romans 8:28 tells us, “… God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (NASB). The conjunction “for,” introducing verse 29, tells us that the blessing of being foreknown, predestined, called, justified, conformed, and glorified applies to the people who love God and who are called according to His purpose–hence my belief that God’s election of these people wasn’t without regard to foreknowledge of their response.

*“5. Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 1:12-13 reveals hermeneutical, exegetical, and logical fallacies. If you would like to discuss these, please lay out your exegesis and hermeneutics, and rework your arguments in light of these observations” (Stephen Macasil).

Not everyone agrees on how to punctuate the English translation of the original Greek, which lacked punctuation. In the New International Version, we read, “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief” (verse 13). The NIV’s translators and editors, then, thought Paul’s ignorance and unbelief were considered when God decided to show mercy.

In the earlier quoted NKJV, we read, “… I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly and in unbelief” (verses 12, 13). The comma after the word “ministry” shows that the concessive adverbial clause introduced by the word “although” doesn’t apply to the participial phrase “putting me into the ministry.” The pronoun “it,” added in the translation, refers to Paul’s pre-conversion behavior (blaspheming, persecuting, behaving insolently).

Paul’s ignorance and unbelief couldn’t have paid for any of his sin debt or contributed toward his salvation, for there was no merit to them. But God considered them when He chose to show Paul mercy.
You mentioned several good verses (Romans 9:16; 10:20; Acts 13:48; Philippians 1:29). But for lack of space and time, I must stop here.

Travis asked me to jump into this conversation and so I tried to think of something to add. I hope I am not bringing up something brought up earlier (if it was, it died though since no one is talking about in the last 25 posts or so :). In reading Frank and Stephen’s conversation I see an area where a distinction might be made to alleviate some of the tension concerning belief-as-work.

First, I think we can all admit that regardless of which side we think is correct, the debate would not exist if the Bible did not seem to lay responsibility for man’s salvation on both man and on God. Second, we all agree that without God’s grace man could not be saved, and that works do not save. But if belief is thought of as a work then we must ask how a sinner could ever perform such a thing in the first place (Heb. 11:6) and how it would not nullify grace (Eph. 2:8-10). On the other hand, if belief is the result of God’s efficient causality then the blame for unbelief would seem to fall on God (Mt. 23:37). Scripture on both sides can be batted back and forth for both of these seemingly irreconcilable positions.

But I think there may be a better way to think about it. The Bible clearly presents natural man as God’s active, not passive, enemy (Rom. 5:10; 11:28). We are born battling God due to our selfish and sinful desires and we would not naturally switch to God’s side (Rom. 5:6). But couldn’t we choose to surrender? It is not required for one to positively affirm his enemy to give up the fight. Ceasing to strive against God’s grace is not, itself, striving (viz. law of non-contradiction). In fact, one might say surrender is the cessation of works! But choosing to cease is still an active choice on man’s part (e.g., ceasing to stand results in falling, but falling is not ‘by works’). This interplay of “actively making a passive choice” seems to be illustrated in the life of Jesus who, according to God’s predetermined plan (Acts 2:22), freely chose to lay down His life (Jn. 10:18), which resulted in Him being acted upon by men (Acts 2:23), who were held responsible for their choice (Acts 2:38).

This seems to (1) retain man’s responsibility for sin and unbelief while at the same time (2) affirm God’s efficient and active role in salvation, yet (3) relieve God from blame for leaving some to damnation if He must, and could, regenerate them to make belief possible but simply chooses not to do so in some cases.

What say ye?

Hello,

In order to settle the issue once and for all regarding Arminianism vs. Calvinism we need to stop using philosophy, theologycial bombings, and verse buffet tables. We need to do the following things to eliminate the confusion.

1) List the Terms and Define the terms of Calvinism Exhaustively
2a) Find every verse that Calvinists use for support
2b) Find every verse that seem to contradict Calvinism
2c) Find every verse that Calvinists Claim Refute Arminianism.

3) List the Terms and Define the Terms of Arminianism Exhaustively
4a) Find every verse that Arminians use for support
4b) Find every verse that seem to contradictive Arminianism
4c) Find every verse that Arminians claim refute Calvinism.

This should be done through Genesis through Revelation. Even if this is done and the two side are not reconciled, the understanding that these two views are logically impossible to blend (or that there is a middle) will be realized by all honest seeking Bible students.

On a side note we should ask the following questions about Church History:

5) Dominately speaking, whom in Church History adhered to Arminianism (or semi-Arminianism)?

6) Dominately speaking, whom in Church History adhered to Calvinism (or semi-Calvinism)?

7) Were the arguments used at the synod of Dort (1618) valid and sound, or did they have “holes” in their arguments.

Logic should be undestood beforehand (e.g. The Law of Contradiction, Equivocation, analogy, univocality, etc). Greek and Hebrew should also be attempted (either via knowledge if possible or tools).

Since history is limited on this blog, I would recommend the verses and terms and definitions on both sides to be put up for evaluation. Throwing verses around here or there really doesn’t answer the question for anybody that might be inquisitive.

More could be done/asked on the subject but this is a good start and the Bible is the best place to begin on any issue.

Jean Cauvin