Dr. Robert Morey on the Sinner’s Prayer

Mar 10, 2008

Dr. Robert Morey on the Sinner’s Prayer

Stephen Macasil

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62 Comments, Comment or Ping

Reformed Mama

The sad face is my fav…

Mar 10th, 2008
Hebba

Reformed Mama!! That was my favorite part too!

Cool Video!…. one of my FAVORITE lectures by Dr. BOB!

Mar 10th, 2008
Mother

The music, the words, what can I say except, innnnncredible!

Mar 11th, 2008
NWProdigal

He has got it right! The “sinner’s prayer” is the biggest lie. So many believe that they are saved, but aren’t honest enough to admit their lives are no different than any non-believer’s.

People have to:
1. Hear the gospel (that Jesus died in their place because they deserve to die - Romans 10:17)
2. Believe the gospel - John 17:20
3. Repent (turn from living life for themselves and decide to live for God - Luke 13:3)
4. Be baptized into Christ (Mark 16:16, Luke 3:21, Acts 2:38-41, 22:16, Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27)
5. Live obediently and abide in the Word (Let God guide your life and decisions - Luke 6:46, 8:13)

Mar 11th, 2008
agogley

This is a Dr. Morey classic!

Mar 11th, 2008
Rosanna

Good stuff!!! Keep um coming!!

Mar 11th, 2008
Sue da Nim

This is truly sad - dripping with sarcasm. I assume you are a 5-point Calvinist and believe that Christ did not die for everyone - Limited Atonement. God has hand-picked those who will go to heaven and those who will not. Man has no choice in the matter. This is so out of character of God it is insulting to His holy Name. It is one thing to disagree doctrinally, but the arrogance and downright mockery is showing - and that sir, is not biblical. At least disagree respectfully.

Mar 11th, 2008
Stephen Macasil

Sue Da Nim, if Christ died for everyone, then why would anyone be thrown into hell?

Mar 11th, 2008
agogley

Sue Da Nim: Even if I believe in man’s choice (which I don’t), how is saying the sinner’s prayer without any sincerity whatsoever going to save anyone? You say a lot of things but not mean them. You can apologize without being sorry. How is this any different? How is saying a prayer without meaning it, even if you have the ability to choose Christ, going to save you? Shouldn’t the sinner’s prayer only be prayed after a person truly believes in Christ and sincerely means the words he prays?

Mar 11th, 2008
OvercommiTad2theWord

Nice work FD crew! Dr. Bob keepin’ it real!

SD Nim - please see Matt. 20:28 “…to give His life as a ransom for many people.”
Shouldn’t “many” have been all if He died for everyone throughout all of time?

Mar 11th, 2008
Travis

I can see a John 3:16 quote coming here, before someone brings that up I would say to them as was told to me look at all the different ways the word world is used, and read AW Pink blurb on the word Kosmos.

Mar 11th, 2008
John

I believe Dr. Morey is being sensitive to the only real seeker - God.

( I read this quote somewhere and its applicable here)

John

Mar 11th, 2008
Fusion!

You guys should turn these into the anti-Nooma videos! Keep it up!

Mar 11th, 2008
Stephen Macasil

John, that sure puts a whole new perspective on seeker sensitive doesnt it!

“I believe Dr. Morey is being sensitive to the only real seeker - God.”

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. - John 4:23

Mar 11th, 2008
Sue da Nim

Stephen, people go to hell because they choose to reject the free gift of salvation. The Word is full of references to man’s choice.

As for the sinner’s prayer, it can be misused. However, for myself, after I present the Gospel and the person indicates that they do want to repent and accept Christ, I use the “sinners’ prayer” as an affirmation of what they have believed already in their heart. The Bible says to confess with our mouth and believe in our heart, so this is a way to verbalize what is in the heart. If it is done this way there is less chance of false professions.

I do not believe that the heart of my Lord Jesus Christ is for every sinner to come to Him, not just certain selected ones. This is an offense and an affront to our loving Savior. The way is narrow and few are there who FIND it, not that they are driven onto it. I was drawn to the Lord and I responded. I prayed a sinner’s prayer. I know the prayer did not save me. But I understood that I was giving my life to Christ and that I made that decision. It was an affirmation of the desire of my heart.

Once again, I see Dr. Morey’s presentation filled with sarcasm and mockery. There is room for disagreement, but let’s do it respectfully. I don’t find a discussion of holy spiritual things a place for such an attitude. I think it truly grieves our Lord.

Mar 11th, 2008
Sue da Nim

Excuse me - I see that I misspoke. I meant to say that I DO believe that the heart of my Lord Jesus is for every sinner to come to Him, not certain selected ones.

Mar 11th, 2008
Stephen Macasil

Sue Da Nim, you said: “Stephen, people go to hell because they choose to reject the free gift of salvation.”

Isn’t rejecting the free gift of salvation a sin?

Mar 11th, 2008
Reformed Mama

You said it yourself you “were drawn to the Lord”…now ask yourself who did the drawing??

Mar 11th, 2008
OvercommiTAD2theWord

SDN-
Can you be saved without being drawn?

Mar 11th, 2008
Sue da Nim

When the Gospel message is given to someone, the Holy Spirit draws and convicts. The hearer has a choice to make - receive the message and aknowledge that he/she is a sinner, repent and receive Jesus Christ as the perfect and only sacrifice for his/her sins OR reject the message/gift of salvation and thereby choose to go to hell.

Mar 12th, 2008
Stacie

I loved it! The graphics made the points stick very well, I actually tasted the red Lifesaver when it showed up.
Praise God for the work He is doing!

Sue da Nim, I have been where you are now and after 1-1/2 years of fighting election I prayed for God to show me who He really is so that I might worship Him in truth. Then I opened the Bible and it opened to Romans 8 and 9. The Holy Spirit opened my eyes to read what I had scanned over for my entire life, to understand it and to submit to scripture not the Christian Culture. Now I am able to worship the Mighty, Sovereign God of all grace who saved me from my depravity and sin. Not worship my free will and my goodness.
God Bless.

Mar 12th, 2008
Sue da Nim

Stacie, and do you feel the slightest tinge of compassion for the ones who in your view were born into this world with no chance of ever being saved and from birth were destined to spend eternity in hell?

Stacie, do you have children? If so, do you wonder which one God has chosen and which one He hasn’t (in your view?) If you don’t, do you have brothers and sisters? Do you ever wonder that He might have chosen you but not your siblings? You were chosen but one of your children might have no choice but to go to hell? Would a loving God do this simply because He is sovereign?

Bible Roulette is not a valid way to gain a belief. It should be done through study or all Scripture and learning the character of God.

My God wants NONE to perish and He shed His blood for ALL who would respond to His invitation. He is no respector of persons. He took upon Himself ALL the sins of the world.

God is sovereign, but He voluntarily set aside His sovereignty to allow His creation FREE WILL to accept or reject Him.

Mar 12th, 2008
Fusion!

SDN,
Where in the Bible is FREE WILL ever mentioned? (Free Will offerings don’t count-it’s not in the text)

Mar 12th, 2008
Denise

God never sets aside His Sovereignty: that is what makes Him God, Dictator, Boss, Owner, Creator, King, Potter. Without His sovereignty, there would be no Scripture, no faithfulness,no fulfilled prophecy, no love,no justice, because HE would be without power to do any of those things.

Sue it seems to me you have an Open Theist view of God, which is heretical. You have a God that is man-centered, not God-centered.

God accomplishes all that He wills; no one can thwart His plan or purpose. He is active in this:

Ps. 33: 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him. 9 For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood firm. 10 The LORD foils the plans of the nations; He thwarts the purposes of the peoples. 11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Eph 1:11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Sue, consider these verses:

Luk 18:34 But they understood none of these things. This saying was hidden from them, and they did not grasp what was said.

Joh 12:39 Therefore they COULD NOT believe. FOR again Isaiah said, 40 “HE has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Who did the blinding and hardening of hearts? God did. See Romans 9 for more verses like this one.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have HIDDEN these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Who hid the Truth from the wise and understanding? God did.

Luke 8: 9 His disciples asked Him what this parable meant. 10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ”‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

Why did Jesus speak in parables? He tells us in that verse. See “so that”.

God is sovereign and He causes all things to work out according to His will and purpose and no one can thwart it. I hope you truly study these passages I’ve given, Sue, with a heart wanting the pure Truth of God and His Word.

Mar 12th, 2008
Denise

May I add that I think that there are two reasons why it is SO difficult for many professing Christians to believe that God is absolutely sovereign in all things:

1.) The sin nature. Man is born hostile toward God and full of love for Self. Man wants to be the captain of his soul, the determiner of his eternity. He wants to rule his world, his way and will NOT be told otherwise.

2.) The gospel they heard and thus will die on the hill for.

If a person who is already believing he’s at the center of God’s universe, he will latch onto a gospel that says the same. How many times have we heard the phrase, “If you were the ONLY person in the world, Jesus would have died for YOU!” or “Jesus was thinking of YOU while on the cross!” Ok, where is that in Scripture? Truly this is man-centered thinking.

This is why I believe it is imperative that we’re careful with what we proclaim to the lost. We MUST get the Gospel right! Otherwise there is no power (Rom. 1:16-17) and a person is believing a non-existant gospel that can’t save.

Its disheartening to have to “undo” (if I can use that term) the wrong view of Man and God with professing Christians. Those that call Jesus “Lord” have no real notion of what that really means, and I think that’s partly due to the “gospel” they were “saved” with. But if they think they are the center of God’s plan (instead of Christ Jesus), they will never bow to His Sovereignty, and will fight to the death for man’s sovereignty.

A very good example of a bad “gospel” is found here: http://www.juststopandthink.com/movieextras_moviemed.php Listen carefully to how God is portrayed. Francis Chan says God is “crazy about you!” and also says its like “God is on bended knee” begging you to say “Yes!” to his proposal, with His ring offered to you.

I mean this is a load of hooey! A little truth is given, yes, but the larger, more dangerous teaching is also given: God as man, and God with man at the center of His universe. This only feeds man’s pride and self-centeredness and detracts from God’s complete Lordship and Sovereignty and majesty. Its no wonder professing Christians hate the Lordship of Christ Jesus—its their gospel they were ’saved’ by.

Mar 12th, 2008
Sue da Nim

Are all of you saying that man has no will to choose anything? Are you saying everything you do is dictated by God from what you had for breakfast to whether or not to resist temptation?

Fusion: Neither Trinity or the term “rapture” are in the Bible, but the CONCEPTS are there.

Mar 12th, 2008
OvercommiTad2theWord

Stacie & Denise - Can I hear an AMEN?!!

SDN -
I urge to you consider these passages from Denise carefully, they have to mean something, right?

Can you point me to where Scripture says “He voluntarily set aside His sovereignty”?

Does whether Stacie has compassion or not change what the Word of God says?

Does God have the right to choose?

Mar 12th, 2008
Denise

Overcommitad =)

Sue, before you get to the issue of man, you must start with God first. I hope you prayerfully ponder the verses I’ve given, because how you God will dictate how you view man. Since Scripture begins and ends with God, that’s the first place to start. “In the beginning God….”

Ps. 33: 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him. 9 For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood firm. 10 The LORD foils the plans of the nations; He thwarts the purposes of the peoples. 11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Eph 1:11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Is. 14: 24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand… 26 This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations. 27 For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

Dan. 4: 35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to him: “What have you done?”

Isa 40:13 Who has measured the Spirit of the LORD, or what man shows him his counsel? 14 Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Mar 12th, 2008
Denise

I apologize….my sentence “because how you God will dictate how you view man ” should read, “because how you VIEW God will dictate how you view man.”

Mar 12th, 2008
Reformed Mama

Again you said it yourself…”the way is narrow and few are there…” we DO have compassion for others…we DO NOT shake our fists at God…we praise Him for saving any…

Mar 12th, 2008
Saved by Grace

Reformed Mama - I assume you are a mother. You love your children. How can you look at your children and wonder if God chose them or not, that one or more of them might not have any opportunity to choose salvation through Christ. Oh well, God says you are going to hell because that is where He wants you - have a nice life! Isn’t that ridiculous? Of course our holy God Who is love would not think that way!!! How can you be so blind?

The bible is FULL of references where man has made CHOICES!!! I am not where I can look up the “addresses”. I have researched this issue for years and looked up every verse that the Calviists use and come to the same conclusion. The TULIP is a stinkweed and Christ dies for ALL - and WHOSOEVER will may come to Him.

I am truly sorry for those who have to wonder if they and their loved ones are among the chosen. Of course we don’t deserve salvation - that is why we accept His gift with joy and thanksgiving and then desire to serve Him out of love and gratitude.

Mar 12th, 2008
Fusion!

SDN,
Ok, let’s get a bit more technical. I do hope you ponder some of the verses we’ve seen. More so, the bigger question is “what is the will free from?” Free from God? Free of sin? Look up the word Freedom or liberty or similar words in the NT. Who do they refer to? I might also add, read John 6 and Ephesians 2 and meditate on what it says about the state of man and what God does.

Mar 12th, 2008
Stephen Macasil

Here’s the deal, this thread can basically be “boiled down” or “reduced” to two differing positions:

a) That Christ’s death on the Cross merely made salvation “possible,” but didn’t actually “accomplish” any specific “mission.”
b) That Christ’s death on the Cross “definitely secured” the redemption of the elect according to God’s eternal decree, not merely making the Cross an event that makes salvation “possible.”

Calvinists believe that position “b” is what the Bible teaches (the biblical position), and is able to be exegetically established from Scripture and defended whereas option “a” cannot. Calvinists believe, and it is evident to this thread, that option “a” requires the appeal to emotions and other anthropocentric (man-centered) perspectives.

Mar 12th, 2008
Reformed Mama

Saved by Grace~

We pray that our daughter is elect and we are raising her as such…in the end we bow to God’s will,however.

Is Scripture your final authority? Do you realize we would not have an infallible, inspired Scripture if man had a so called free-will? Yes, people make “choices” but, that is different than “free-will” which is a humanistic term and should not be embraced by Christians. TULIP was not invented by Calvin…the Reformed life is SO much more than 5 letters!

You have a wrong understanding of love, who God is, Calvinism and the “whosoever will” passage.

Eph.1:11-12 “In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of His glory.”

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Romans 9 ALL OF IT!

You could not have read these passages and truly understood them by the power of the Holy Spirit…if you did you would be a Calvinist!

There is no need for you to be “truly sorry” for any of us…our God is a consuming fire, a jealous God, our Sovereign Grace, our King, our Savior and soooo much more. We love Him because He FIRST loved us and because He graces us to do so!

Mar 12th, 2008
Fusion!

Thanks Stephen. I might add, the good people of triablogue have an interesting (and funny) article on the subject.

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/03/psa-for-arminians.html

Mar 12th, 2008
Sue da Nim

Calvinism/Reformed Theology is scripture twisting, out of context and out of the character of God. God so loved the WORLD, not just a few. He died for the WORLD, not just a few. It is that simple. There are pet verses where they hang their hat and ignore all the other verses that talk about how much the Lord loves the WORLD and is not willing that ANY should perish. He wants everyone to come to salvation, but because the salvation messge is exclusive, many will not believe. But it THEIR CHOICE!
Yes, the Spirit draws when His Word goes out because the Word is by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit draws ANYONE who hears the Gospel message!
Reformed mama, as for your children, what about the scriptural admonition and promise to raise up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it? If you raise your children in the Lord, they will be saved when they reach the age of accountability. Either that or the Bible is a lie and we know the Holy Spirit is Truth.

To say man has no free will is crazy! We make decisions all the time. We can choose to ignore God’s warnings as Christians. He then chastens us. Why would there even be the verses about chastening if there was no free will?

Mar 12th, 2008
Reformed Mama

Sue Da Nim~

Define world? Does it mean all people, everywhere who have EVER lived? The answer is No! Research it!

Again…you defeat your own arguement…”the salvation message is exclusive”…only the elect will receive eternal life…parable of the sower Luke 8!

Choice is different from “free-will”.

“The Spirit draws anyone who hears the Gospel message” is a statement that cannot be supported Biblically.

“Age of accountability” is another one of those “Christian culture” terms and is not supported Biblically.

Choice and “free-will” are not the same thing. I don’t appreciate you calling us “crazy”! We are chastened because we sin…we are sinners!

Mar 12th, 2008
Travis

Sue da nim, check this article out, let us know what you think, we can use “world” just like we can use “love” ie. I love this hot dog, or I love God, or I loved my wife. Enjoy

http://sovereign-grace.com/pink/appendix-c.htm

Mar 12th, 2008
Travis

And probubly the most encouraging thing that Dr. Bob has tought me was, about Free will, and it is so simple.

What are we free from, and what are we free to do?

because my will is not free I make myself a bondservant after I have been called out of darkness, am I free to go against God, no that would be sin, am I free to disobey his word no that would be sin.

Mar 12th, 2008
agogley

Saved by Grace: “I am truly sorry for those who have to wonder if they and their loved ones are among the chosen.”

Agogley: I feel sorry for those parents that believe that salvation is entirely up to an individual’s choice. Imagine your child rejecting Christ and not being able to ask God to bring repentance and salvation because God leaves men completely to their own will.

Sue Da Nim: “all the other verses that talk about how much the Lord loves the WORLD and is not willing that ANY should perish. He wants everyone to come to salvation, but because the salvation messge is exclusive, many will not believe. But it THEIR CHOICE!”

Agogley: What verses say that?

Sue Da Nim: “Yes, the Spirit draws when His Word goes out because the Word is by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit draws ANYONE who hears the Gospel message!”

Agogley: Really? Where does the Bible say that? What did Jesus say? “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

Sue da nim: “what about the scriptural admonition and promise to raise up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it? If you raise your children in the Lord, they will be saved when they reach the age of accountability. Either that or the Bible is a lie and we know the Holy Spirit is Truth.”

AGogley: Is Proverbs 22:6 a promise? If you always “train up a child in the way he should go” he will always “when he is old he will not depart from it?” Is everything in Proverbs a promise to be expected? If you read the entire book, you know that isn’t true. The book of Proverbs in not a book of Promises. It is a collection of pithy sayings designed to keep us from the pitfalls and snares of sin.

Where is the Age of Accountability or any concept of such discussed in the Bible?

Sa Da NIm: “To say man has no free will is crazy! We make decisions all the time. We can choose to ignore God’s warnings as Christians. He then chastens us. Why would there even be the verses about chastening if there was no free will?”

Agogley: Now you are mixing apples and oranges. Free will of man in choosing salvation and free will of a Christian to be obedient are two entirely different things. A Christian has the benefit of regeneration. An unsaved person does not. The Bible says over and over again that Man is wicked through and through, cannot and will not seek God on his own accord, and that man can be saved only if God gives him the ability to recognize his sinful condition.

Mar 12th, 2008
Stephen Macasil

Sue Da Nim said: “Calvinism/Reformed Theology is scripture twisting, out of context and out of the character of God. God so loved the WORLD, not just a few.”

Let’s put this to the test. John 3:16, from which this quote was taken, was originally written in ancient koine Greek. Since we are predominantly an English speaking people, we rely either on the translation of ancient koine Greek into English, or the ancient koine Greek manuscripts alone. Here is the verse in the original language according to the NA27:

ou[twj ga.r hvga,phsen o` qeo.j to.n ko,smon( w[ste to.n ui`o.n to.n monogenh/ e;dwken( i[na pa/j o` pisteu,wn eivj auvto.n mh. avpo,lhtai avllV e;ch| zwh.n aivw,nionÅ

The first word in the verse is ou[twj which is pronounced houtos, an adverb that when joined with the coordinating conjunction ga.r “gar” (for) is rendered “For in this way.” So, as the translators of the English Standard Version noticed, the verse should read: “For this is how God loved the world…” If you have the ESV or any other translation that has caught this you should see a footnote that documents this.

I bring this up because of the way that “For God so loved the WORLD” has been misused and “twisted” to assert that God *loves the WORLD and thus implying a universal atonement (that Christ died for everyone, everywhere, and of all time). If anyone ever quotes John 3:16a to make this point, it is our task to patiently teach them what the text says while pointing out the error in a corrective manner, in love, unless they are a pig or a dog – then you reserve the precious truths of the Gospel for those that won’t trample it underfoot or bring shame to the greatest event in redemptive history.

When Sue Da Nim uses only a portion of a sentence to make a universal claim such as God loves the WORLD, not just a few, she is actually misquoting the verse and using it out of context, or as she has charged Calvinists with: scripture twisting.

Does it make sense to say “For this is how God loved the world, not just a few?” No. It leaves the logical questions unanswered; “how?” Or, “in what way?” Do you see the tension? It is only by partial quotation out of context that the unsuspecting hearer or reader is persuaded.

I challenge all of you to think about this.

When John wrote the account of Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus in ancient koine Greek, he was saying, “For this is how God loved the world, he gave his only Son, so that the “believing ones” wouldn’t perish but have eternal life.” Jesus makes it clear in Ch. 17 as to his view of the “world” when he prayed, “I am praying for them (the elect). I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.”

Mar 12th, 2008
Chavez

Sa Da Nim there is a video that I watched it was called Amazing Grace The history & Theology of Calvinism. After watching it I was floored!!!! It was a tough pill to swallow, I always believed that man did have a free will.
In 2 Timothy 2:26 “and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him (the devil) to do his will.
Our will is in bondage to sin until God makes us alive !! We are dead in our sins and He makes us alive , We indulge in the desires of our flesh Ephesians 2 1-10

I want you to ask yourself this question “do you believe that you can lose your salvation? If you say “No” That means before you came to Christ that you had a free will But now that you are “in Christ” you are stuck with, Him Jesus said So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:31-37 There is alot of good books out there to explain the Doctrines of Grace One that really helped me was Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul , Tulip by Duane Edward Spencer

Mar 12th, 2008
Mario

Sue Da Nim…….

We were once where you are. You have got to let go of humanism! You have to accept the mysteries of the Bible and admit that you are not able to figure everything out. In reality, you are not understanding Scripture. You have absolutely no basis on which to stand on and need to examine where you stand in Messiah.

Cut out the “Calvinism” and Reformed Theology references and call it what it is in reality: Biblical Christianity. This is Christianity for the tough minded. Christianity where you let go of legalism and trust in the Mega High Priest Jesus as LORD! If you are a sodier of the cross, pick up your weapons, tighten your boot straps, and press ahead soldier! (That is if that is what you are) Only you can answer this.
May you not prove to be a pseudo-Christian.

Mar 12th, 2008
Rosanna

Sue Da Nim,

You need to understand (use your Bible and your Brain) that the word “world” has different meanings compared to John 3:16 Take for example, John 17:1-26.

John 17:1 These things Jesus spoke; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, 2 even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. 4 “I glorified Thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which Thou hast given Me to do. 5 “And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. 6 “I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy word. 7 “Now they have come to know that everything Thou hast given Me is from Thee; 8 for the words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them; and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from Thee, and they believed that Thou didst send Me. 9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine; 10 and all things that are Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 “And I am no more in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as We are. 12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 “But now I come to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 “I have given them Thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 “I do not ask Thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth. 18 “As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 “And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. 22 “And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. 24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world. 25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known Thee, yet I have known Thee; and these have known that Thou didst send Me; 26 and I have made Thy name known to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith Thou didst love Me may be in them, and I in them.”

The word “world” is mentioned 18 times. Compared to John 3:16, you can’t say that the meaning of the word “world” here is the same as the word “world” found in John 17:1-26.
I was once in your shoes until I had to use my Bible and my Brain to actually see what Scripture says in Context. I pray that the Lord will reveal the deep things of scripture to you. Like Mario said”, “Cut out the “Calvinism” and Reformed Theology references and call it what it is in reality: Biblical Christianity.” That’s really what it is. We aren’t making it up it’s what the Bible says. Your not really disagreeing with us, your disagreeing with the BIBLE!!! That’s scary.

Mar 12th, 2008
Glenn Hendrickson

“Come in today, come in to stay”? Isn’t the sinner’s prayer Luke 18:13 “God, be merciful to me, the sinner?”

and can i say that our church should have a midweek service? that would be awesome!

Mar 12th, 2008
b-radino

I find this to be a very interesting topic in the realm of apologetics. In a way, it’s kind of sad to see ignorance being so bliss. I believe the sinners prayer as been exploited and many people are walking thru the world unregenerate. And sadly, these people were never truly saved. As it says in Matthew 7:13-14: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Or take it a step further in 1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

So, if you read this correctly, a lot of what everyone is saying on here in terms of election, predestination, etc is accurate, according to The Word of God. There’s no save and loss philosophy or renewing of your salvation. You either have it, or you don’t. Now that doesn’t mean stop preaching the gospel to everyone. It just shows God’s control over the whole thing and how limited our choices (if any) truly are. God is on his throne; he runs the timeline of our lives. We can do all the dogmatic bantering on here we want till the cows come home. But, when push comes to shove, and a brother or sister in Christ is in trouble, as John said in his one of his letters: “Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?” -1 John 3:15-17.

We must not forget to come in LOVE, not strife against the non-believer or the heretic who in his or her mindset, is “twisted” themselves by the evil one. And for those who don’t believe, as it said in the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”

We can only pray for more and more people to come to salvation under the sovereignty of God. The who, what, where, and why is not of our concern. That is mystery of it all. God’s ways are not our ways. But, as David so genuinely prayed: “Make me to know your ways, O LORD; teach me your paths.” -Psalm 25:4

Amen and Amen! God Bless…

Mar 12th, 2008
OvercommiTAD2theWord

Sue & Grace -

Are you interested in truth? Or just want to start quarrels instead?

It’s time to take the Bible off the shelf, blow off the dust and read the passages you have been given here! God led you to this video for a reason!

The Word of God is confronting you! What will you do?

Mar 12th, 2008
Joey Frascella

As usual Dr. Bob at his best Nice scrptures Bradley. Live it. Galatians 2.20

Mar 13th, 2008
Denise

I think the issue STARTS with God. I believe Sue has the wrong notion of God and what Scripture says about Him. If Sue were to recognize God’s absolute and total Sovereignty, then we could move on to the issue of Man and how Man fits in.

But until Sue sees that God NEVER gives up His attribute of being sovereign, there’s not a whole lot of discussion, really.

(I find it interesting that when a person reduces God’s attribute of Sovereignty they also increase Man’s “sovereignty”—both of which are not biblical).

So Sue, I have been praying that the Lord would draw you to HIS Word and that HIS Spirit would reveal the Truth to you as you search the Scriptures to see what HE says (not to prove what you have been taught and believe, not to prove anyone wrong, but to see what HE says, and thus conform your thinking to HIS–as He has done with me and countless others).

The issue must begin with God if we are to have a correct view of Man.

If God is not Sovereign, He is powerless to save even one person.

I truly hope you see what I mean.

Mar 13th, 2008
Reformed Mama

Stephen~ In all the uproar I forgot to say “Thanks” for this post…you did a great job on this video…shall we tackle “speaking in tongues” next…hmm…

I’m very proud of all the Reformers on this thread…you offered wisdom…truth…encouragement…great questions…best of all Scripture…I second your comments Denise…love your blog too!

God’s Grace…

Mar 13th, 2008
Stacie

Sue da Nim,
My apologies for not responding sooner. I posted and hadn’t been back to the site until today.
It appears everyone has covered the scriptures in regards to God’s Sovereignty.
So, in response; I do have many I love although I am not a mother yet. But I bow my knee to scripture and God’s revealed plan of salvation not to my emotions or to my logic and human reasoning.
My sorrow for the lost is great, as is my fear of a mighty and just God who has saved me from my sin for reasons I do not know. We cannot demand God’s grace or Christ Blood to wash over our sins.
I pray the Holy Spirit will allow you to rest in God’s Sovereignty.

Mar 14th, 2008
Ed

The “vending machine” analogy was a fine way to put this. It is so popular in all areas of life, not just religion, to substitute a rote procedure or ceremony for something genuine. Among some, this is manifested in a “sinner’s prayer” which may be an expression of true faith, but often is not. Others “make sure they are saved” with sacraments or a list like “believe, repent, confess, get baptized.” Still others may “make sure they are saved” by trying to find and arrange some minimal set of correct opinions in their minds.

Can we trust Christ enough to simply leave our salvation to Him? Do we have confidence that He knows how to save us and will do so? The desire for a procedure we can perform to guarantee our salvation by legal contract arises from a lack of trust in the One who came expressly to rescue us.

Mar 15th, 2008
Tim

Ed,

Your on track, here’s the Man’s responsibility part,
Phil 2: 12-13: So then, my beloved, just asw you have always obeyed, not asw in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who in at work in you, both to wil and to work for His good pleasure.

God has put in your heart; now if you are truly His - you will start working for Him.

Mar 15th, 2008
Tim

I’m not a typist!

Mar 15th, 2008
Angela

To Sue Da Nim

I appreciate that you are giving it your best shot on this blog. I think many of us sounded like you before we came to understand the “doctrines of grace.” I don’t want to sound as though I’m attacking you, but please deal with the text of scripture and meditate on it. Start with asking yourself if you believe in original sin. Was Adam’s sin passed on to all men after the fall? I’m sure you believe it was. Here’s where you would differ with a Calvinist. You believe that while we are sinners we still have the ability to choose God, in other words, that sin has not corrupted us totally. We still have some good, God seeking part of us that can choose to be saved. The Calvinist believes that scripture teaches (many good verses were given by Denise above) that sin corrupted our entire nature. If you read Romans you’ll see “no man seeks after God.” This is called total inability. Yes, you can choose what your going to wear or eat, but our choices are always determined by our nature. No one with a corrupted sin nature is going to choose God. All of us before we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit are corrupted. There’s no good thing in our nature that would cause or enable us to choose God. Grace can’t be demanded. When we are saved all the credit goes to the Lord! We can’t credit ourselves with any of it which is a more humble view in my opinion. When I understood this all the rest of the doctrines fell into place. Please study God’s word without the traditions you’ve been taught and yes non-denominational churches have traditions, and you will see that today’s gospel is a man centered one. You may not think so, but really pray and examine it.

You sound like you have a heart for the unsaved and so do Calvinists.
God Bless you Sue,

Angela

Mar 17th, 2008
Travis

Are these girls by products of the sinners prayer

I am watching the Bachelor because it is whats on while I work, and 2 of the women that were available for the guys to choose from are, a youth minister, from FL and a Church administrator, from OK. What kind of biblical husband is this guy going to be.

Mar 18th, 2008
Ike

To Sue Da Nim,
My son has a reformed blog. He tells me he just got saved two years ago and he is now thirty some years old. I won’t interfere with when he was saved but now that he is head over heals into “calvanism” and reformed theology he sounds much like all these responses to you!
Here’s the deal. What they are saying is true. What you are saying is also true. The problem as I see it is “NOBODY” wants to admit that “election” and “free will” is a parodox. Only God can truly explain how this all works. When “they” explain it they emphasize “election” and minimize the fact that God “enables” the sinner to respond. They think when someone like you or me bring in our response to the Word of God and the working of the Holy Spirit……..we are denying the fact that in our sinful state we are incapable of responding and really that is not what we are saying.
I love my son and just disagree with his emphasis! I gave up talking to him about it. Believe me…………..they have all the answers and we just don’t understand. The fact is God is God and only He can fully explain all this!

Mar 22nd, 2008
Travis

Here is what we can say, God is completely sovereign and man is fully responsible for his actions, we do have to repent but God has to give us to his son, and the spirit has to give us faith.
How God works this out is unknown to me, but his word reveals this truth.
The only free will that exisist is Gods, my will is controlled by God, but I make decisions in his sovereignty, How this works I do not know?
The issue is the sinners prayer. It says I have to believe with out understanding what the gospel is, who Christ is and why you need good news in the first place.
We as Calvinist or whatever label you want to put on us have to be careful of heresy and apostacy just as anyone does. We can not make the mistake of saying its all God in salvation and man does nothing, but God knows who his children are and the process which God goes through to save an individual is flawless, when God “knocks on your heart” he will also open the door, and he will give you the faith and you will respond in repentance.
Praise the Lord

Mar 22nd, 2008
Stephen Macasil

Travis, good points. Have you been getting my emails? I wanted to talk with you about something offline. Respond if you did.

Mar 22nd, 2008
Mark

“The only free will that exisist is Gods, my will is controlled by God, but I make decisions in his sovereignty”

I guess Travis is sinless according to this statement?

Mar 23rd, 2008
Ike

We, who have received the Gospel, have a fearful obligation to deliver it. This obligation is not only to God, but also to our generation and the generations to come. Although the Gospel can be corrupted in an instant, it may take the Church years, even centuries to recover it. If Church history teaches us anything, it teaches us that though heretical movemets abound, there are few genuine reformations. There is something worse than holding our silence while the lost world runs headlong into hell. It is the crime of preaching to them a watered down, culturally carved, truncated Gospel that allows them to hold to a form of godliness, while denying its power, to profess to know God, while denying Him their deeds, and to call Jesus “Lord, Lord”, (say the prayer), while not doing the Father’s will. Woe unto us if we preach not the Gospel, but even greater woe if we do so incorrectly!

Mar 23rd, 2008
Travis

Yeah I sent you an email

Mar 24th, 2008

Reply to “Dr. Robert Morey on the Sinner’s Prayer”

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