biblicalthought.com

Wow….All I can say is wow. Very powerful clip and, God-willing, hopefully it reaches the masses and exposes them to the light that is the truth of God, revealed through Scripture. Just curious, does the Faith Defenders ministry plan on creating and posting more videos? They definitely help in furthering the cause of the new Reformation that has begun.

Great video and message guys. Dr. Bob I always love your work and direct way of delivering the Gospel. Thank you.

If I was a reformed billionaire, I would make out a check, payable to “Faith Defenders” for a few million big ones. Then I would continue to pray that God uses the donation as the lubrication of the machinery of the Kingdom in advancing this New Reformation. But even to a hypothetical billionaire, the video is PRICELESS!

My favorite quote was, “If you don’t like it - get out! The moment you leave, we’ll experience revival!” Oh, well said Dr. Morey!

Dr. Bob definitely does not fear the “frown of man”…perhaps he even has God smiling tonight! Well done ALL…may these videos bear much fruit for God’s Kingdom!

I am out to seek truth & I appreciate the theological thought behind this whole discussion. So in effort to seek truth, can someone (preferably Dr. Bob) tell me who the “us” in Romans 5 (particularly 5:8) is referring to? Dr. Bob your answer would be much appreciated. I love this ministry & love that it is there to stir the hearts of us all. Thank you for your time & efforts, great ministry!!

Oh Dr. Bob, you are soooooooooooooooooooo mean! How dare you say that God does not love everyone!

Hey Jason,

You brought up a verse and that verse is 2 Peter 3:9. I’d like you to answer a question that is similar to the one you asked initially.

What or who is the object in question for this verse? Is the object the trees in your front yard or all of the zebras on the African continent? Are you saying that Peter is teaching that God doesn’t want any of the people that lived in the past, are currently living now or will live in the future to perish?

Let the context and the way that the words are put together in the passage (syntax) dictate your answer. Don’t come to this verse with a preconceived idea. If you do think that the object is all people that have ever lived or ever will live, then please give your reasons.

Good video (although the camera man started to make me ill).

I have a couple friends who have, as Dr. Bob mentioned, stared the truth in the face and decided not to follow. They aren’t athiests but they’ve decided that the cost is too high to be a follower (much like the Rich man).

Hey Jason,

I think what Drew is trying to get at is that 2 Peter 3:9 is not talking about a generic “everyone” but it is talking about, and directed to, specific people. A lot of people will use this verse as an argument against reformed theology and after hearing it be abused as often as it is, it is sometimes difficult to read what Peter is actually saying.

The first thing that should be noted is that Peter is talking to Christians. His letter is directed to the church and so that is his main audience. And when you look at the specific verse in question, this becomes even more apparent. Peter states that God is “patient toward you, not wishing for any (of you) to perish but for all (of you) to come to repentance. Peter has already identified his audience in the beginning of verse 9 and so he doesn’t repeat the phrase “of you” throughout the verse, but it is assumed that you know who he is talking to.

Here is an example of what I mean. Say you were sitting in class and your teacher was giving you instructions on what to expect for the big test next week. The teacher then makes this statement: ” I really want you guys to study and to take your time with the test because I don’t want anyone to fail.” Now, who is the teacher talking to? When she says she doesn’t want anyone to fail, who was that directed to? We wouldn’t assume that the first half of her sentence was only directed to the class and then the second half of her sentence was directed to the entire student body, would we? No, the entire sentence was given to the class that she was teaching, even though the generic phrase “I don’t want anyone to fail” was used.

This is exactly what Peter was doing in the verse cited. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense concerning the type of language Peter was using.

I am loved by Him and know you are wrong. Sorry, Bob!

I cannot begin to tell you all what a response I’ve gotten from this video posting on my myspace page! I’ve only had one positive response and the rest were completely negative. I cannot be more saddened at the fact that Christians (good Christians) are being robbed of the truth. The truth of God that NO one likes. God’s just anger and hate for human beings is just so difficult for people to swallow that it eats them up inside. So what better thing to do but deny it! I even have reformed friends that absolutely cannot stomach Dr. Bob’s ‘way’ of telling the truth. I sympathize with them because they only see a small part of Dr. Bob a lot of people love to hate! It’s sad that they’ve been brain-washed into thinking the Christian is to be meek and mild. How ironic that the very Christians that have such an emotional (almost hateful) response to Dr. Bob say that it is un-biblical to think that God hates. They are the same Christians that say it is not right to hate others! I’m confused…so it’s okay to hate the messenger but not the origin of all truth. It’s okay to hate Dr. Bob but not our Holy and perfect God who says all of these things plainly in our BIBLE.

One of the most troubling things to see is other Christians who just skip over all of the “wrath” verses in the bible and put a lot more weight on the verses that speak of God’s love. The entire Scriptures have been given by God to His church so we can understand Him better and a balanced view of God must take the “wrath” verses into account. Take these for instance:

Psalm 5:5 - The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

Psalm 11:5 - The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

I have to ask if anyone here has read D.A. Carson’s book, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God? In it he presents a picture of God’s love which is easy to understand and has (personally) cleared up a lot of confusion I had.

The gist of his book is that Christians sometimes take one aspect of God’s love and treat it as though it were the only aspect to the exclusion of the others. Of course that assumes that there are different senses in which the Bible portrays God’s love. Carson makes a good case for this point. There are at least 5 categories which he provides in which the Bible speaks of God’s love:

1) The peculiar love of the Father for the Son, and of the Son for the Father. This is an intra-trinitarian love which is described by the greek words agapao (John 3:35) and phileo (John 5:20).

2) God’s providential love over all that he has made. This love is universal and is seen in all of creation. For example, God’s care for animal life (Luke 12:24) and plant life (Matt. 6:30) is offered as evidence of His love for creation. Also in Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 5:43-48 Jesus commands His followers to “love your enemies…so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.” This seems to indicate that we are to act toward our enemies with love because God has (in some sense at least) done so. In what sense has God shown love to His enemies? Christ continues “for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” The following verse reinforces the idea that love is the context here (see Matt. 5:46). Also in Luke 6:35-36 Christ commands His followers to “love your enemies…for He [the Most High] Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.” The parallel account also indicates that there is a generic love in God toward His enemies.

3) God’s salvific stance toward his fallen world. This point, according to Carson, is the love God show’s to the world in verses like John 3:16. He interprets this with reverence to the world’s “badness” in contrast to it’s “bigness,” that is to say that this verse is not referring to the elect but to the love God has for the world that is evident in His commission to have the gospel preached to it and repentance offered to it and so on (even though it is clear that only the elect will will respond with belief and repentance).

4) God’s particular, effective, selecting love toward his elect. This is the love which God has toward Jacob and not Esau (Mal. 1:2-3, Rom. 9:13). See also Deuteronomy 7:7-8; 10:14-15.

5) God’s love in sometimes said to be directed toward his own people in a provisional or conditional way - conditioned, that is, on obedience. Carson has in mind here the love that exists in an already formed relationship one has with God, the love between a true Christian and God. Once such a relationship is forged there is biblical precedent to “keep yourselves in God’s love” (Jude 21). This love is conditional because of its close relationship to one’s obedience, we must “abide in My [Jesus’] love” (John 15:9). The next verse continues, “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” This kind of God’s love is not unique to the New Covenant for it is found in Exodus 20:6. This is, once again, a type of love which is not possible without a saving knowledge of God.

I agree with Dr. Bob that there is a sense in which God loves some people and there is a sense in which God hates other people. I also agree that the question “does God love everyone?” ought to be qualified before answered. I think that the bible does seem to indicate that God does love everyone in some sense. As I noted above, God causes the sun to rise on evil people and on good people. He also sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Christ takes this truth to mean at least two things: 1) God shows love toward all men, both His friends and His enemies, in doing this. And 2) because God does this we are to show love toward our enemies, and not just our friends, and in so doing we imitate our Father.

All that to say, would it not be more edifying to recognize the biblical presentation of the different types of God’s love when answering the initial question? Are we truly doing justice to the biblical presentation of the different types of God’s love when we relay the message that God either loves you or hates you, PERIOD, no qualification with regard to the different types of love that are found in the Bible? Is there not more to this study than blanketing the issue with either-or dichotomies (love or hate, grace or wrath)? To be sure, such distinctions are biblical and necessary in their proper place, but if the question is what does the Bible say about God’s love, or Does God love everyone, we should not go into those distinctions without just cause lest we be unclear by answering a question that was not asked.

i have a question,

does the scripture talk about God loving and hating people or a person at any time, at the same time?

is there distinction Gods love in the scripture?

im trying to understand if God can Love and hate a person at the same time.

a general love
and wrath

where, if anywhere does scripture say God has a general love for people but also hates them?

Well done and rich with truth. Ignorance is bliss among many believers in this day and age. I’d be curious to see what modern day apologist like JP Moreland and others would say to this clip. I’ve passed this along to some friends who don’t attend Faith Community and they’ve been very receptive too it. Can’t wait for the next one! -bradino

Travis,

Well, I don’t think you’ll find both of them together. In the New Testament nearly every single discussion of God’s love refers to God’s redemptive love. So you wont find it in the NT. The OT has several references to non-redemptive love which can encompass non-believings persons as well as believers. I believe that all of the references for non-redemptive love were limited to the nation of Israel, for which God directed blessings to those who were obedient even if they weren’t part of the elect. Non-redemptive love can be rejected by man and withdrawn by God.

What is amazing about pride and arrogance is that it represents the unregenerate person in the same light as it does the “regenerated” person. That video though an attempt at being frank and open bubbles with a loveless arrogance that speaks volumes of a person sadly lacking the fruit of the Spirit. No one, I do mean no one having been truly born again, having really met Jesus has ever come away lacking in humility.
The word “love” for Jacob, used in his video represents the root word “favour”, and it simply is used to emphasize what God had already promised concerning the twins Jacob and Esau. Esau made very foolish choices but it did not stop God’s favour from being his because of his father Isaac. But His covenant remained with Jacob, just like Isaac and his older brother who also received blessings from God but the favour put towards His children is that of any parent toward his/her own children. God’s wrath is not depicted as hate in the limited view of the word hate. If as a parent exercises anger or wrath for something a child does that is wrong, does that mean that the parent hates the child? Of course not, but somehow as human beings we get it right and the Lord Almighty, the example of what a real Father is all about simply pours out His wrath because of hate. Search the scriptures and you will not find that kind of theology anywhere.
I would humbly suggest that if need to know the truth, read your Bible for yourself and ask The Holy Spirit to provide the interpretation. Too many people are sacrificing their Bible study and prayer time for listening to man. If you have the Holy Spirit living within you can know the truths found in the Bible for yourself.
“Dr Bob” read Phil 2 and hopefully you would somehow discover the attitude of humility that is a mark of a true saint of God.

Agogley,
With repect to humility, it is not something you say, it is an attitude/lifestyle. An attitude is something that is usually put on display. 1 Cor 13 pretty much addresses the loveless expositions that spew from the lips of Biblical literates who do not apply the same humility to their lives with respect to the statement… “but God…” and “for by grace…”.
It is rather interesting that thus far in my life I am yet to meet a hyper-Calvinist who bears the marks of Jesus in his/her attitude.
Can you take explain “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked…”
Can explain “touch not the Edomites (decendants of Esau), for he is thy brother…”?
Can you explain “love (agapao) your enemies…do good to them that persecute you…pray for them that despitefully (hate) use you…” I certainly would not want to follow a God who appears to be telling me to do one thing and because of His “sovereingty” does the complete opposite. Wouldn’t that rate Him just like the pharisees He despised?
Calvin above all people not only used over 400 statements made by Augustine (one of the founding father’s of Roman catholicsim), but somehow managed to complete most of his studies under humanistic philosophers.
I wonder why Geneva is the world’s most neutral center where there is no stance on any issues that thwarts God’s Word.
Can you also explain the folowing excerp from Calvin’s writings especially the last statement?
“The chosen few were saved by the operation of divine grace which cannot be challenged and cannot be earned by Man’s merits. You might have lead what you might have considered a perfectly good life that was true to God but if you were a reprobate you remained one because for all your qualities you were inherently corrupt and God would know this even if you did not. However, a reprobate by behaving decently could achieve an inner conviction of salvation”. I really thought that man had absolutely no merit with respect to salvation, yet it is possible for a “reprobate” to behave “decently” to “achieve”? Wow!
When you are through look up the meaning of reprobate (Rom 1)

Spell your name correctly and your comment won’t be held for moderation; it’s Sharia Internet Law.

Stephen, I find it strange that you only chose to defend the statement of John Calvin and not that of the Bible. Your response is similar to that of an Islamist, contradictory. Your explanation still says that man has some kind of control and input with respect to his salvation. You have clearly said it is based on some kind of merit. “All our righteousness is as filthy rags…”, “God is no respecter of persons…”, Matt 7:21-23.
You may begin to understand the trouble people get into when they firstly attempt to explain God’s infinite Love with the finite human mind and intelligence. What is strange is that Calvin never wrote any commentary on the tiny epistles of John. (As John pointed out in one of His epistles “God is Love…”)
When you look at the commandments which Jesus summarized in Mark 12:30, 31, you would see again the fact we are to love the Lord with our entire being, and our neighbour (not our brother or sister) as ourself.
Jesus could never be misquoted or misinterpreted when He said “For God SO loved the WORLD…”. Please note that anywhere the world is mentioned in scripture it references either the entire human race, the world’s system, or creation at large. The word “so” is what makes the difference between the cheapened explanations presented in this video and the quality and extent of God’s love. It is the kind of love that can only be enabled in those who are born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Himself.
Again I suggest you read 1 Cor 13 and see what the true qualities of real love is all about. What Paul was doing here was addressing The Corinthian church/Calvinists who attempt to pass themselves as being superior because they believe they are of the elect and posessed special abilities. Paul stepped in to show them a more excellent way, Love, the driver behind doing anything for God.
When Jesus literally attacked the pharisetical love concerning loving only those who show you love, He was emphasizing another characteristic of God that passes our human understanding. (Father forgive them…)
It would serve your spiritual health better by putting down the Reformation books, stop feeding on self-righteous rhetoric spat out by persons who are academically intelligent but are spiritually illiterate, and get back into your Bible and ask God’s Holy Spirit to enable you to glean the truths in it for yourself.
TULIP - is a flower not scripture nor truth
I speak this in love, and with much compassion

Delta:

You honestly leave me scratching my head. Your eisegesis of various texts is difficult to follow. I’ll briefly address some points.

Delta: “It would serve your spiritual health better by putting down the Reformation books, stop feeding on self-righteous rhetoric spat out by persons who are academically intelligent but are spiritually illiterate, and get back into your Bible and ask God’s Holy Spirit to enable you to glean the truths in it for yourself.”

Agogley: What was your complaint about lack of humility again? There is a verse that comes to mind: “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.” So proud so arrogant that Paul!

Delta: It is rather interesting that thus far in my life I am yet to meet a hyper-Calvinist who bears the marks of Jesus in his/her attitude.

Agogley: Yes, yes fascinating. I’ve never met a doctor from Taiwan either, but since I don’t see any hyper-calvinists or doctors around here, perhaps we could play trivial pursuit later?

Delta: “Please note that anywhere the world is mentioned in scripture it references either the entire human race, the world’s system, or creation at large.”

Agogley: Really……..? And what do you mean by the entire human race? All persons that ever existed? When Jesus said in John 15:18 ‘If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you, ” He was talking about the entire human race, the world’s system, or creation at large? You might want to look at the following verses in rethinking your position on this issue: Luke 2:1, John 1:10; John 6:33; John 7:4; 1 John 2:15; 1 John 5:19; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19

Delta: “Again I suggest you read 1 Cor 13 and see what the true qualities of real love is all about. What Paul was doing here was addressing The Corinthian church/Calvinists who attempt to pass themselves as being superior because they believe they are of the elect and posessed special abilities.”

Agogley: Amazingly, after scouring 1 Corinthians, I failed to find any reference to Calvinists. I wonder which Calvinists believe they possess special abilities? Are they like super-powers? I’d personally vote for flying…I could save hours on my commute.

Delta: “TULIP - is a flower not scripture nor truth.”

Agogley: You must be a Daisy lover: He loves me, he loves me not; I’m saved now I’m not. I hope for your sake the daisy has an odd number of petals.

“We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.”

Delta said: “Stephen, I find it strange that you only chose to defend the statement of John Calvin and not that of the Bible.”

Why would you find it strange? It is precisely what you’ve asked for. You asked: “Can you also explain the folowing [sic] excerp [sic] from Calvin’s writings especially the last statement?”

Delta said: “Your explanation still says that man has some kind of control and input with respect to his salvation. You have clearly said it is based on some kind of merit.”

Really, where?

Delta said: “What is strange is that Calvin never wrote any commentary on the tiny epistles of John. (As John pointed out in one of His epistles “God is Love…”)

What’s even more strange is how I am able to read Calvin on 1 John, particularly verse 8 of chapter 4, you know, the famous “God is love” verse. If Calvin never wrote it, yet I have in my possession volume XXII (Heb., 1 Pet., 1 Jn., James, 2 Pet., and Jude), then how did it get here? So, I guess his commentary on 1 Jn. 4:8 where he says: “true knowledge of God produces love in us” (p.238 Calvin’s Commentaries – Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI – ISBN: 0-2010-2440-4), must have been written by someone else under the pseudonym – Johannes Calvinus. No argument here.

Delta said: “Please note that anywhere the world is mentioned in scripture it references either the entire human race, the world’s system, or creation at large.”

Luke 2:1 - In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

Are you saying then that either the entire human race, the world’s system, or creation at large had to report to Caesar Augustus?

Delta said: “The word “so” is what makes the difference between the cheapened explanations presented in this video and the quality and extent of God’s love.”

This is what we call “Valley Girl” eisegesis. Have you ever heard a valley girl talk. “Chocolate is *so* my favorite flavor!” I *so* can’t wait to see American Idol!” Etc. The Greek word “houtos” is simply a conjunction, meaning “in this way” or “thus.” So it could be read, God *in this way* loved the world, not that He just loved the world, but *in this way* He loved it: that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Delta said: “It is the kind of love that can only be enabled in those who are born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Himself.”

You may be quoting from a Calvinistic commentary. Check the name. Who was it?

Delta suggested: “get back into your Bible and ask God’s Holy Spirit to enable you to glean the truths in it for yourself.”

I did this, that is how I KNOW Calvinism is true. Are you going to question it?

Travis, Checked the website, nothing different to what Calvin teaches. Response to “all world should be taxed…” check the empire built and encompassed by C Augustus.
I am still awaiting the explanations to passages like Matt 5 “love your enemies…” and all others mentioned before.
Mark 10:17-30 (vs 21 - what kind of love is being mentioned here?). It is very obvious this person had no real love for God as he was seeped in idolatry, hence the reason why Jesus dealt with the second commandment before addressing the first, love the Lord thy God….
Was Judas called and chosen or just called (to what)?
I stand corrected with respect to Calvin on 1 John, not 2nd and 3rd John.
Note: The greeks were the first people to break up “love” into different kinds or degrees of love.
Unconditional means just that, it has reference to reciprocated love. Jesus at the end of His betrayal yet still referred to Judas as “friend”.
I will one day have the clouds removed from my spiritual understanding when I stand before Him at the judgement for the saints.
Paul was only following instructions given by Jesus concerning witnessing to people who reject the gospel. It was not arrogance being displayed. He was following the example set by His Lord.
Since you have the truth, it is time to do what Calvin did, and start a great mission out reach throughout the world.
The people of the world needs to know if they of the “elect” or not.
I am quite impressed that you attempt to feed newborn babes in Christ meat when they should be needing milk.
You cannot be sure I am a babe or a mature believer.

Delta7638,

You wrote: “I stand corrected with respect to Calvin on 1 John, not 2nd and 3rd John.”

But, what is your point?

Delta~

TULIP was developed 54 years after Calvin’s death at the Synod of Dordt and has in some ways become something that Calvinists are mocked with. The Reformed life is sooo much more than 5 letters!

Our pastor can be a bit of a shock at first…give him a chance…read his books…look up the Scriptures…listen to the Romans downloads…pray about what he is teaching and by all means compare everything to Scripture (Acts17:11).

Give these guys an opportunity to share what they have studied in some cases…like Stephen…for years. They are the good guys!

You wrote: “Since you have the truth, it is time to do what Calvin did, and start a great mission out reach throughout the world. The people of the world needs to know if they of the “elect” or not.”

Do you know much about Faith Defenders? We are all over the world and indeed will keep at this mission until He returns for us.

You asked for comment on loving our enemies. My daughter asked me a couple of weeks ago if that meant Osama Bin Laden as well. I am training her to hold the Scriptures in both hands like a scale: you love Osama because he has value, worth and signifigance as created in God’s image. If you spot him in the desert you blow him away because he has done/continues to do much evil (Rom.13:4).

As for the elect no Calvinist should presume to know who they all are. Again…it is Scripture…we love, preach/teach, correct, rebuke, evangelize etc…God has predestined all for our good and His pleasure.

This truth has set our family free…He is in charge and I am SO not!!!

Reformed Mama, That verse in Romans is directed at rulers and their God given responsibility of protecting the land against evil doers. Where there is government they are to enact the punishments toward evil doers/law breakers.
Be careful with such responses because that makes you become just like Osama (Islamic Militant) who lives by the Mosaic law of eye or an eye and tooth for a tooth.
Revenge is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay…
The best thing you can for an enemy is to turn him over to God in prayer.

Delta

I know it is a difficult concept but, both are true…we are to love our enemies AND protect one another (such as a soldier might do according to Rom13). If a child rapist comes for my daughter I’m going to do what I have to do to stop the evil as Jesus taught (Luke 22). That does not make me “become just like Osama”…that is very offensive!

Delta:

Proverbs 26:5. Then you may begin to understand my responses…

You should purchase Dr. Morey’s “And God Mocked Them: The Divine Use of Humor and Ridicule in the Bible” CD.

Agogley, Matt 5:22, It is a pity that all of your responses only convinces me more that you are a disciple of Dr Bob and not of Jesus Christ. I do not need to read Dr Bob’s opinions and/or seek his approval with respect to salvation or any other spiritual/Biblical matter, so I guess I am going to continue being a fool for Christ, what about you? The gospel is free and I am supposed to “purchase” someone’s personal opinion about a matter that is clear in the Bible?
I personally would suggest that you take a page from Travis where respect and humility is concerned. It is a pity that dogma and morals had never saved anyone, you would be right next to God if it did, but hey, until you are clothed in the mind of Christ (Phil 2:1 - 10), I should not expect any different a set of responses.
Stephen,
Does God repent? Not the sense of mankind Gen 6:7, 1 Sam 15:11
Does He worship Himself? No need to as He is the only object of true worship. Does He glorify Himself? Does He exalt Himself? Yes
Does He pay taxes? I don’t know! Matt 17:27
Though you do understand what is being alluded to in my response to Travis, you have once again chosen to use Islamic tactics of pretending to look at some wider picture.
etc
etc
etc
???
Anyway, this is your site, and I have had quite an interesting visit, but I do have to go and preach the gospel to every creature…Oops, sorry, who are the elect will come whether I preach or not… Rom 10:14- 21…So continue the discussions, but please try to step up the transparency a notch with respect to questions being raised. “Be ready to give an answer…”

I think there are 2 ends of the spectrum.
On one end, there are people who really think that God is a universalist, on the other end, there are people who are so obsessed with defending that they forgot about 1 Cor 13.

I respect this man’s utter devotion to the Word… and i think the Word should be the ultimate rule of faith.
Unfortunately, in some people’s eagerness, they missed out a very important point

1 Pet 3:15 (ESV)
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it WITH GENTLENESS AND RESPECT,

As much as his zeal to defend the faith is to be applauded, his clear lack of love towards those who don’t share his views cannot be condoned.

Some food for thought.

I found this song and put it on myspace, its by Jonny cash I think it fits here, listen to it

called Gods gonna cut you down

Travis, I have rested from this forum, so please don’t ask me to verify a piece of lyric written by Mr Cash (who by the way on the same album wrote “Love’s Been Good to me”, which a typical cowboy song of lust, loose and lascivious living). You should know better than that. If you had sent me to the Bible you would have gotten my attention.
To the pretender, Jean Cauvin, Please use a name that is worth God’s time and effort. Dr. Bob is NOT Jesus Christ, God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit, so what he writes won’t make a difference to my relationship whith Jesus. Phil 1:6
I have wasted much time time here, so it is time for me to go and share Gpd’s word.

Delta:

“A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.”

Delta,

So apologetics and warning Christians dont matter in this world and finding good teachers that preach Christ dont matter either, I guess im in sin because I dont share Gods word All the time, I guess we both better repent for wasting time.

Delta:

Mirror, mirror on the wall….

It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.

Hi Travis,

I checked out that thread. Looks like you and Harold have preached the truth in love like lights in a dark place! We thank God for you brother! it’s a good thread to follow. I’ll be reading…

wrong, very-very wrong - read in context, stop creating our Lord as a pre-determing monger with a strict literal hate for anyone, he came to save the sinner and not to chase him away from it with hate and fear!!!
remember the love displayed on that cross was such a price that any one who is willing to accept that in there heart and confess there sins will be forgiven!!! how can you say to the sin-filled person to leave the pews and go about your ways as wrong as they may be - did Jesus give up that easy on confused and rebellius sinners? i do not think so!!! respectfully my friend - show a little of the compassion that our Lord was filled with for ALL of humanity.

Todd: “remember the love displayed on that cross was such a price that any one who is willing to accept that in there heart and confess there sins will be forgiven!!! ”

AGogley: The problem with that statement is that it ignores what Jesus said about salvation. Jesus said that nobody is willing to accept it unless God enables him to do so. The Bible explicitly says that nobody seeks good and that our spiritual condition is such that we cannot on our own will, seek God.

Todd: “how can you say to the sin-filled person to leave the pews and go about your ways as wrong as they may be - did Jesus give up that easy on confused and rebellius sinners?”

Agogley: First, nobody here ever said to tell a sin filled person to leave the pews and continue in their sinful ways. What we would tell that person is that you need to repent and become a believer in Christ and that by grace through faith you may be saved. Secondly, what Biblical reference do you have for saying that Jesus did not give up on confused and rebellious sinners? Several times, Jesus told people to stop sinning and then left them on their own. How about the rich man who wouldn’t give up his riches? Did Jesus chase him down?

Does God love everyone? Yes.

grace and peace,
Chad

so whats the point of even trying if God hates people? how do you know that you are loved by him? everyday I see reasons why religon is a falsehood………so now I know God hates people, maybe thats why my life has gone the way it has perhaps God hates me.

I definitely agree with this, not just coz its Dr. Bob, but for the Bible itself which he explains in plain truth! To all those watching this, i remember seeing a sign in a diner that says “if the steak’s too tough for ya, get out!!! this is not a place for weaklings” lol, so is this message. For supposedly proclaimed Christians out there who have their own made up Jesus of “all love, sweetness and cotton candies and no hell and no judging and no punishing God” , they cant take the meat, they need more milk or better yet a doctor who can do some surgery to their twisted minds, coz they definitely dont know God, this meat are for the tough ones that God has given the grace to “see” the truth, for we are not ignorant of these things nor should we be ignorant of this, i am only 20 and im just a woman but i grew up with the bible, i dont go on accepting stupid people’s ideas about what they think God is like, i read God’s word, and its explained plainly, that God is not only a God of Love but He is also Justice and He is a person, for God shall have mercy in whom He shall have mercy, and God shall love whom He shall Love, for all of us, we should know the facts, yes there is HELL and yes alot of people are gonna go there and YES WE DESERVE HELL, it is amazing grace that God saves some! and we should rejoice for this, because WE ALL DESERVE HELL, for God’s value is priceless and He is infinite, therefore the sin we have committed against an infinite God deserves infinite punishment…

Jean 3:16

For God so hates the non-elect that He will give His only begotton Son in the 2nd coming. That whosoever does not believe in Him will perish, and not have everlasting life.

Revelation 12:9

One may disagree emotionally, and one may disagree exegetically.

Jean Cauvin

I would love to : )

John 5:22, 27 - Jesus is the only Judge and executor of His Judgment. Thus all judgements we find in Scripture are the result of Jesus’ application. The examples are to numerous, here are some.

Genesis 6-9 (The Great Deluge via godly hate)

Genesis 6:6-8 (God upset about the reprobate and later killed them but found favor with Naoh).

Genesis 19:24 (this was a theophany of Jesus, Jesus actually blew up (bombed) Sodom via godly hate)

Exodus 12:31-42 (drowned Pharoahs army via godly hate)

But perhaps you may say that he has killed and has been disgusted with the wicked but still loves them by blowing kisses at them while they sleep. At this point the burden of proof shifts to you
in light of the above examples (and hundreds more in Scripture). I will continue though:

2nd Samuel 5:8 (NASB) = David hated his enemies (non-Jews)
Psalm 31:6 = David hates idol worshippers
Psalm 139:21-22 (why would David hate the God-haters? (vs. 22 He hates his enemies? But I thought we are suppose to love our enemies?

God hates Esau Mal 1:3/Romans 13:5 (This would include Jesus’ hate)
Notice that Esau was hated before he was even born via the context

Psalm 5:5 - hates those who do iniquity (see 1st. John 2:19)

Psalm 119:113 - He hates the double-minded

Note, these are some traits of the reprobate: iniquity, double-minded, idol worshippers, God-haters, etc. Many of these same descriptions are found in Matthew 23 via the Pharisees. Thus via consistency, Jesus would have to hate the Pharisees as well.

Matthew 12:39-42 - the Pharisees are part of the condemned nation
Matthew 23: 1-33 - Note he calls them wicked, blind, self-indulgence, dead men’s bones, etc.

Via above, God hates those who do iniquity as described in Matthew 23 (cf Psalm 5:5-6), thus Jesus hates (present tense)
the Pharisees since the Pharisees are wicked.

How do we reconcile this with 5:44. David hated his enemies, (Psalm 139:21-22), Jesus hated the Pharisees (Matthew 23:1-33)
so what do we do with Matthew 5:44?

I argue that love they neighbor is NOT universally ALL humankind (I hate Osama Bin Laden Biblically)
I argue that love your enemies is NOT universally ALL enemies (within the community of believers)

In light of the above examples and 1st John 2:15 (Do not love the world OR anything IN the world).
we are NOT to love the reprobate. That doesn’t mean we are nasty or unkind. But love in light of the Matthew 5:44

We do not know who is or who is not elect. God will put upon the evangelists heart to love those whom he draws (John 6:44).

Are you not forced to agree in light of Scripture?

Try to think outside of Tradition.

Jean Cauvin

Yeah. That is a new concept, a sin to love the non-elect. Where are you pulling that from, Jean? It’s understandable for women to love their enemies, but guys must be reasonable and hate them? We hate the world as a whole but individuals…how can you stand face to face with a nonbeliever and hate them? I’m talking normal conditions here - everyday people. Where is your motivation to witness if you hate everyone that doesn’t profess Christ? If you hate them, you’re cool with them heading towards hell. You can’t wait for them to say they believe until you tell them about Jesus.

It’s impossible for us to hate the non-elect and love only the elect since we don’t know who that is. God can because He’s God and we are not (yay!).

Becky,

This understanding I realize is virtually universally denied by almost all churches in the world. I understand that. So you are feeling what probably most people would. This is a secondary issue (non-essential). So how about showing me some love? : )

1) The “but” is a contrast to a misconception of the verse as recorded in Leviticus 19:18. He was saying that you have heard this BUT rather this is the proper understanding of the verse. He was clarifying a misuse of the verse. This contrast is not the strong contrast (alla) but rather (de) which is what you would expect.

2) The enemies we are to love are within the community of believers. So for example, Dr. Morey is to show love to [REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR] in light of the above verses. [REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR] is a Christian though Morey’s enemy (though Dr. Morey may claim him apostate, I don’t know).

3) We don’t know who the reprobate are. However, those who practice unrighteousness (or apostates) are suppose to be hated to some degree. Hate the sin and love the sinner is a humanistic concept no where found in Scripture.

4) If a person simply doesn’t know Christ, then he could be elect and simply not converted yet. So since there are many unknown elect people out there, I’m hesitant until the fruit of unrighteous practice is evident (e.g. Hitler).

5) God will place upon the Bibllical evangelist heart to love an elect person who has not yet realized his salvation.

A) Does Jesus love the Pharisees in Matthew 23?

B) Does Jesus love Esau?

C) Does Jesus love Osama Bin Laden?

Becky, do you love Osama Bin Laden? How can you stare Osama in the face and tell him you love him? If you love him what does that mean? Do you have a heart tug feeling about him? What is this love?There is no biblical warrant. I hate Osama and would shoot him in the head If I had the chance (I’m sure Travis would too).

If you love Osama, you might as well love Satan. The verse is specifically talking about people right?-so perhaps the prince of darkness is loved by Jesus? This is absurd.

Don’t go beyond the text. What does it say? I interpret it as within the community of believers IN RELATION to the passages above. I think Scripture mirrors this understanding.

Instead of dipping feelings into the equation, address the text via Scripture. We are not suppose to go by what sounds right or feels right. The text says it, and I accept it. Reformed MaMa made an emotional comment instead of disputing the argument based off of Scripture.

If I’m wrong, show me from Scripture.

In Christ,

Jean Cauvin

[ATTRIBUTING ENEMIES TO SOMEONE IS PROHIBITED - ADMINISTRATOR]

Reformed MaMa,

I agree with you that the Scripture says those things. I appreciate you quoting Scripture. But how does this deem my argument false?

Jean Cauvin

Jean~

I am so glad that you agree with me about the Scripture…it is my one interest…by God’s grace…to follow Messiah through obedience to his word.

John Cauvin said-
“Because an elect person can be lost.”
You, my brother, are talking out of both sides of your mouth. If an elect person can be lost, then it is by his choice he is lost not by predestination. If he were predestined, he wouldn’t be lost–he’d be already saved.