Moshe
My dear friend in Christ it is what comes from within that defiles you not from without and once one has grased the difference one can discern what is true in not and has no meaning in the reality of Biblical truth. Idols are usless sculptures and valueless persuits and I know the difference. I don not agree with Roman Catholosism and its theolgy at all, but I have friends who are Catholic. I am called to get along in the world as beat we can without trouble as Paul expressed as long as we are not forced to denounce the truth of the Gospel and called to be the Light And Salt my friend in this fallen world.

Rev. Pat

I just didnt see this as a document that does any good as a theological statement, but as a political one showing some unity of belief toward those issues, It has merit.

John

In the OP I said:
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My first impression, which is that it should have been presented as a political document rather than a theological one, has been the recurring rationale behind my reading of it over the past few days.

The document would probably not have received such critical attention if it were presented as a political one, but presenting it as a theological document has earned it theological criticism.
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The criticism, which has been primarily theological, is because the document everywhere is being promoted as a theological statement and not a political one (as you seem to take it). It is no shock to learn that the leading ecumenists (Robert George and Chuck Colson) are behind this document’s promotion and the overall agenda behind it, as well as the message of victory as a big check mark is thrown up in the ecumenical movement’s corner.

Did you listen to Phil Johnson’s interview? I posted a link to it above. I think Phil makes his points very clearly.

As Ive read in so many accounts of hundreds of different Christians…all this tough talk about “we wont stand with these compromising signers”…is nothing but hot air and pride. Put yourself in prison for just a moment, your wife and children completely shut out from obtaining work or food supplies….just how long will you hold your policies? If a communist offers you a cup of cold water will you refuse? I dare say never. If a RCC Bishop blessed that water, would you refuse? If a Buddist Monk…brought that water from a sacred spring devoted to some ancestor will you refuse to drink? No, you would know that God has given it to you, even by the hands of pagans so that you may continue to preach the gospel another day.
Oh how you will wish from someone to rise to power to help you, to hear your cause, to refresh you in some way…or to at least aid your starving Children. But alas, Arminian Christians may hold the only food that can be given, or abomination of abominations a Catholic has the only open door in which to supply the tiniest bit of canned food for your family.

Once youve seen what it is to live under the godless and the despot, the tough talk and the empty words will vanish. Its too late to gather the community together to say “we want to hear preaching”….when the ungodly have killed both reformed and Cultist because to them, both of them had a gospel that was to be silenced.

This the way I see it. I believe if we continue the way we are going, we will all see it, if not, our children will for sure.

John

I will probably comment on it on his website from Stephens link.

Who is the MD aimed at? Is it a Catholics or Baptists? Is it Pentacostals or Presbyterians? Its utterly useless sitting on a pastors desk that holds your or my point of view. Its meant to go much farther.

Its aimed at Congressmen and Representatives that care what the constituency think and especially how they vote. Its a statement to the radical lefties who are pushing their agendas which effect the basic three issues that were addressed. They couldnt care one little grain of sand whether or not our ‘gospel’ is sola fide or works based. They couldnt care less that we are Catholic or Martian for that matter.
What they do care about is shutting down anything “God”. What they care about is unhindered monetary and beneficial entitlements that can be had by equalizing marital status. Demolishing the traditional marriage is not on the front burner, its equalizing the public outlook on alternative coupling.

The danger from these groups is that once they are able to kill our rights as Christians to publicaly promote the gospel, it wont matter if its sola fide or if its work based. The Mormons and the Presbyterians will both be censored and now stand to undergo persecution if they persist in gospel proclamation. So what did they both gain by fighting behind the scenes instead of making a combined effort to maintain their right to offer the gospel according to their own consciences? They both loose.

We all loose. We Christians loose and we have the most to loose. So, you want to haggle doctrine, well haggle it, but if you think the atheists, agnostics and sectarians care about the outcome, and which one they will want to kill as part of their agenda….youre nuts. They want to kill it all, all gospel, all hindrances to public acceptance of homosexual coupling. They will happily silence sola fide as fast as they will the Mormons door to door.

This is not about compromising our theological stake in the Ivory Towers of Academia, its about being able to hold a bible in the street, its about killing children, its about totally wiping out the marriage bond as a foundational stone upon which our culture has been built.

I say the MD is a good political statement in which Christians should get behind and endorse.

John

I view this as a political statement and not a theological statement designed to catagorize all signers as agreeing in all the fine points of what this document is trying to aim for.

Point 1. In this situation those who have a different take on the gospel or do not agree in how I preach the gospel are not my enemies in this matter because they are in agreement that our “theological constructs” are our own and under the title “gospel” we assert the right to preach and practice that gospel according to our own consciences.
Point 2. It must be allowed that differences of conscience on the construct of the gospel cannot and should not interfere with a mutual defense of the gospel. The right to speak, to practice and to hold dear to our selves and our families what we have received is the fundamental right I am seeking to maintain.
Point 3. I hold that in the case of marriage and right to life issues, my conscience holding to the statements contained in the MD are built upon an epistemological footing derived from scripture as I understand it, nevertheless, if others seek to advance the same cause for altogether different epistemological reasons, that does not interfere with the solidarity I have with them to establish and maintain right to life or hold marriage in the same high esteem.
Point 4. It is no contradiction to scripture, nor to holiness to save lives whether I snatch them from the fire with saint or sinner. The object in my mind is the preservation of foundational rights and privileges I have as a citizen of the USA.
Point 5. I have a scriptural warrant to appreciate the exercise of the ungodly to save lives and glorify God even though they are outside the covenant of grace. Luk 10:33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. It is understood that Samaritans were not under the covenant of God, nor were they apart of the visible body of believing Jews, they were half/breeds. Yet, the action of the Samaritan was commended by Jesus Christ as something to be imitated. I therefore as a Christian should not do less than the Samaritan.
Jesus Himself received water from the Samaritan woman…whom the Jews have no dealings with.
Point 6. It is because this is a political statement and directed towards achieving a political end, I ally myself with others I normally would never find myself in agreement with. But greater ends must be considered in my mind. That greater goal is the preservation and continuation of the public gospel ministry in america as it is and the resistance to public killing of children by women who chose against God’s laws. The marriage between man and woman is worthy of being upheld as it is the visible demonstration of bond between Christ and his Church.
Point 7. Lastly, this MD is not intended to solve theological differences, nor do I expect it to advance ecumenism. Rather, I see this as a platform where like-minded individuals under the banner of biblical and/or ecclesiastical unity seek to resist the political enemies of the Church and the Spiritual enemies of the Church.

Because what is at stake here is not sola fide or works based salvation, but the free proclamation of either of them. What is at stake here is not biblical epistemological concerns with marriage but injection of competing types of human couplings where the entire definition is changed in the public mind. Finally, murder in all forms should be resisted by Christian and atheist alike, to fight this plague all hands helping should never be refused.

I hope here you can see my mind and my motivations.

Proverbs 26:12; Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

What part of Romans 16 is not clear to you? Do you need a good commentary or have you already concluded that the Scriptures must bow the knee to your ecumenicalism and human reasoning?

John Robbins once said the following and I believe this applies to Mr. Taylor as well as all those who compromise and disregard the commands of Scripture; to be seperate from idolaters and to touch no unclean thing seems to be some foreign language for many who claim they are the real deal. You will know them by their fruit!

It is this mindset from Mr. Patrick that allows heretics to win battles. John Robbins once said, the reason heretics win are…”….and most important, those who believe the truth tend to be slow to recognize error and even slower to take the actions necessary to defend the truth. They lack both discernment and courage. This is the crucial matter. Christians cannot help the fact that the sons of this world are more shrewd than they are, or that false brethren do things subtly, surreptitiously, and coercively. But Christians can help how they understand and respond to such doctrinal and ecclesiastical subversion. Their lack of discernment stems from a lack of knowledge of Scripture, and their lack of courage comes from a lack of belief in the promises of Scripture.”

Proverbs 21:16 A man who wanders from the way of understanding Will rest in the assembly of the dead.” So let it be written, so let it be done!

respectfully, Moshe

I hear you argument but one must understnd Dr. Bob is a man a finite man and as such subject to error just as I am and you are and my friend in this life you will find yourself at times mabe remotely between a devil and hard spot and you must choose to fight a battle some times alongside those you may not fellowship with on a regular basis. You have much to learn about life my friend it sometimes only throws a curve ball but you must swing away to hit the ball. The declaration is sound on its premise though there are those who sign it that may not be you greated alies they are nontheless at times and if they cast out demons in His name today count it as a blessing that they maybe moving more into the correct position, there is always hope, but if you dont fight for something you fall for and from everything.

Rev. Patrick Taylor