Via the fruits of doctrine Rick Warren relays, would we say he is on his way to hell or on his way to heaven?

Now I know that nobody knows ultimately. So we don’t have to go through that roller-coaster. However, the judgement of the saved is simply the affirmative assessement verses the negation of the unsaved via the same assessment. The analysis is the same for both so hypocrites can’t say we should not talk about those going to hell but those going to heaven is fine. It’s like what my grandma use to say, “don’t talk ill of the dead.”

Hopefully I eliminated the roller-coaster on this issue. Via the doctrines of Rick Warren, is he going to hell or is he a brother in Christ? Morey often says Christians can have pagan ideas and still be Christians. That’s not what I’m asking.

I’m asking if the doctrines construed by Rick Warren by definition reveal his spiritual standing an enemy with God and thus outside of the Christian faith?

Just curious as to what others on here think.

Jean Cauvin

As a former comedian and current pastor, I was hopeful that you would, to quote your own words, give me “some grace..as well as points for a sense of humor.” I was going for a “light moment.” Hopefully you’re the only one that missed it. I still think it was funny

But since you would rather take the straight up and down approach, let me ask you something. You said: “The Elders at my church that I’m accountable to know what I did and did not agree with concerning Rick Warren…as well as the flock that I shepherd. They are the only ones that need to know.”

Since Titus 1 clearly states that you (as a pastor) have a *particular* accountability that is beyond the scope of the supposed accountability that you have inferred in your response to my second question, please tell us how you can avoid the charge of having an active role as a heresy aggregator by violating the following:

“He [Chris Elrod] must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” (v.9 ESV)

Do the Elders at your church (to whom you are accountable to) approve of heresy aggregators in their congregation or in their pulpit?

A note about chronology that I thought was absent from Warren’s statements and your own. The only gospel that is probably truly choronological is John. So appealing to some sort of progressive call to a deeper commitment may be unfounded. Still, I would strongly affirm that Jesus differently depending on the circumstances and the individual and crowd he spoke to as is evident in many places (i.e., Samaritan woman for one). This, I think, has been a struggle for the church in our day.

You also said Drew, “Although RW did not elaborate on the steps that he takes people through from “come and see” to “come and die”, the biblical mandate is that the new Christian must start with “come and die”.”

Well of course! And I think RW would agree with you. What he’s saying though is that there is an elevation of commitment and one’s understanding of God once you have already become a Christian. I would still embrace RW as a godly brother in Christ, since honestly in the big scope of things, his teachings are not bad enough to even consider labeling heresy.

Obviously you were not in the room either during the interview. There had been several people sitting next to Rick Warren before the interview started. They were asked to move across from him by some of the Exponential leaders so as not to distract during the interview. Rick felt a little uncomfortable with him on one side of the table and fifty people on the other. He made a joke about feeling like a circus act…people watching him for entertainment…and the cupping the hand under his arm was part of that joke. It was a light moment…not a serious doctrinal statement..by a person that appeared to be a little nervous in the situation he was in. Having been in the room…and knowing what was taking place…I’d prefer to give him some grace..as well as points for a sense of humor. Some of the people we interviewed took themselves very seriously…

As for your second question…no. The Elders at my church that I’m accountable to know what I did and did not agree with concerning Rick Warren…as well as the flock that I shepherd. They are the only ones that need to know.

Chris Elrod

Did you agree with RW when he said the secret to church growth was cupping your hand under your armpit and squeezing out flatulance sounds?

Did you or will you publish what you did and did not agree with?

There is an old saying about assuming…in this case it fits you like a glove. You do not know me…have never met me…and was not in the room with Rick Warren before or after the interview. However, you make an assumption about what I believe…do not believe…and what I discern from my conversation with Rick Warren. The assumption is that I agree with every answer he gave…when in fact…I do not.

Over the course of three days Scott Hodge, Todd Rhoades and myself were granted access to many different types of church leaders…some well known such as Andy Stanley and Rick Warren…others not so much. We asked literally hundreds of questions and received hundreds of answers. Some of the answers I agreed with…some I did not…and still some I am trying to discern whether they jive with Scripture. However…at no time…have I ever stated that I agreed with every answer given…particularly when it came to the conversation with Rick Warren. I was grateful for the time he gave us…appreciated his candor in answering the questions…and was surprised that he put no parameters on the kind of questions we asked him (unlike some of the other guys we interviewed). However that does not mean that I was in agreement with any or all of his answers.

In future please do not make assumptions about me…or what I do or do not believe when it comes to Scripture. It just makes you look like…well…as the old saying about assuming goes…

Chris Elrod

My first hurdle: his lack of remedial grammar knowledge in speaking.

“You don’t have to not grow spiritual people.”
“And they go, ‘Where we gonna go Lord? We got no place to go.’ ”

Huh? Isn’t that a double negative? What is he trying to say? Someone please teach this guy to speak decent English!

My second hurdle: Man-centered foolish garbage. In Warren’s world:

YOU get people closer to Christ- I guess the Holy Spirit does not.
YOU get them to know Christ – I guess the Holy Spirit does not.
YOU get them to grow in Christ – I guess the Holy Spirit does not.
YOU get them to serve – I guess the Holy Spirit does not.
YOU deepen them spiritual – I guess the Holy Spirit does not.

YOU get the credit, God does not.

Seems to me Rick Warren doesn’t need the Holy Spirit in his “church”.

It is GOD Who is the ONLY One Who draws, convicts, keeps, and teaches HIS own (John 6). NOT Warren, or his minions, books, programs, strategies, processes, psycho-heresy nonsense. The Spirit of Truth shall draw HIS own into all Truth. A biblical church will have biblical shepherds to proclaim the Truth from Scripture. Scripture is what the Spirit of God uses to sanctify us and to know the Truth.

Warren and thus Saddleback learned well from Billy Graham: people can be saved not knowing of Jesus Christ. Although not hearing of Jesus Christ, they are walking in the light. http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/maturity/fullstory.asp?id=5534 Wow! This is contrary to Romans 10:9-10; John 8:24,58, John 14:1;Acts 4:12 for starters. HE has proclaimed Himself, His name, and HIS salvation, both in the OT and NT.

He signed the letter of common ground with the Muslims a few months ago, agreeing that Allah is God. This is rank heresy! Go here for examples of Warren’s universalism: http://www.crossroad.to/Excerpts/books/in-name-of-purpose/18-0ne-god-many-paths.htm#10 .

*SIDE NOTE*

Btw, the Exponential Conference is nothing but Emergent Church Movement garbage. You might want to note who all showed up to hold hands together. Tim Keller’s one of them. So are other major Emergent ecumenical leaders. http://www.exponentialconference.org/ I did some research on those guys. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Beware! While they will spout *some* truth, its mixed with error, so they are those who SECRETLY SNEAK IN among you, teaching heresy, not the pure truth of Scripture.

*Back to my hurdles to get through the piece on RW*

Another hurdle: Psychobabble

His “strategy” is code for manipulation to get the numbers, used to cause fear (where in the world does he get his stats anyway? And who determined they speak the truth?) and to impress….which leads to my next hurdle:

Pride

Every single time I ever read a Rick Warren interview or article, he always boasts about how his “church” (its NOT a church, its a social club to help God-haters feel cozy) does it right and has been doing it right for ____ years; how large his church is; how he and his wife “reverse tithe”; how many small groups his church has; etc.

Lastly:

I don’t know if Warren shared how he deals with “resisters” of his anti-biblical direction and method of PDL in his interview (that’s not a Happy Thought and would turn off his audience in a heartbeat), but here’s a snippet of this great pastor who has done it right for 28 years:

“When a human body is out of balance we call that disease…. Likewise, when the body of Christ becomes unbalanced, disease occurs…. Health will occur only when everything is brought back into balance. The task of church leadership is to discover and remove growth-restricting diseases and barriers so that natural, normal growth can occur.” http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm

As I was telling you last night, I am so glad our church is not either of the types the Purpose-driven Pope (I think you coined that) puts forth. What a blessing to have a Biblically sound ekkelsia.

God’s grace Drew…