Feb 19, 2008
A Real God and a Real Hell
This clip from E.R. is about an old man on his death bed. Guilt-ridden and bogged down by his sin, he fears facing God in his current condition: guilty. The dying man recognizes his guilt and accountability before a holy God and gets pissed-off when his bedside comforter feeds him Rick Warren-like powdered milk in a moment when what he needs is steak. He ends up kicking the liberal emergent-type out and says “give me a chaplain that believes in a real God and a real hell.” Watch the clip and answer this question in the comments: how would you have answered him?
Imagine of more television shows were like this.
30 Comments, Comment or Ping
Tim
Powerful!
Feb 20th, 2008
Tim
It is truly sad that what the chaplin in this clip is depicting is all that the world has to offer! Schaeffer was so good at showing us how time and time again the world failed to answer these ultimate questions and that there is “The God Who Is There”
Feb 20th, 2008
Reformed Mama
How about “You’re right, you’re a pig…I’m a pig…God’s Word is clear on that! Would like to hear about saving faith and a Holy Sovereign, God who humbled Himself, became a man, faced our temtations, bore our trangressions and died a sinner’s death on a Roman cross?
Contrary to where the Catholics get stuck, with Jesus still on the cross, He conquered death and rose on the third day! In contrast to the EO who love to keep Jesus a baby in the arms of the “Mother of God”…He is a mighty Judge, Counselor and King!
There is a heaven, my friend, and a hell…would you like to hear about the Lamb of Wrath…let’s open up God’s Word…
Feb 20th, 2008
Derek Manning
My response is as follows:
Yes, you are guilty! Just as I am guilty. The Bible states that we all deserve an eternity in hell for every evil deed committed, evil word that exited our mouths, and every evil thought rattling about in the deepest, darkest recesses of our minds.
However, God has given us a way out of that dire prospect of eternal separation from God. That way out is by believing that Jesus died for the sins of His people, and was raised from the dead in order that you would be declared righteous by God. The Bible says that if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess with your mouth that Jesus is God then you will be saved.
The question I would then ask is do you believe that, and are you willing to confess that belief?
Feb 20th, 2008
John
My response:
Its good youre asking the hard questions, Its a sign that there is hope for you. Since youre not going to be satisfied with clique’ lets talk straight. You want to really know what God has said about men in your condition I will tell you. Men in your spiritual state are going to face the judgment of God with no hope of obtaining forgiveness for their sins. What must be done, must be done now. If you are sensible that your conscience is telling the truth about your life, mainly that youve sinned and done nothing to remove that sin its no wonder that you are in this agitated state demanding answers.
God has said that “all have sinned”, the real rub is are you going to confront the issue that “you have sinned?”. You know what keeps your conscience agitated, those sins must be acknowledged and laid before God in prayer before you will be able to obtain any help from me or God. Sin is the problem and Jesus is the answer to it. Jn 8 Jesus said “If you do not believe I am he, you will die in your sins”
“He what”?, He is the Savior sent to forgive and remove mens sins.
All talk of heaven and Gods mercies are useless until youve laid open before God what kind of man you really are in the light of Gods commands. What kind of man were you? Not the kind of man you wish you were but the kind of man you really were? The kind of man God saw coveting money lusting after women or cursing and swearing, taking Gods name in vain? Is that you? Good works? You say youve done many good works? But what good work erases the lies youve told? You know that youve only told more lies to conceal the lies you told originally. Your own conscience didnt even erase those lies after you did such and such, do you think God is going to forget them because you did something good? God will not acquit your guilt on that basis. Ezek said so.
Its great youve opened yourself up to this conversation, because if you hadnt you would have died in your sin ignorantly, now there is hope for your recovery. My friend, Jesus was come into the world to confront you and bring you past this state of estrangement from God and reconcile you to Him. God has said that “no one seeks after Him”. But now because youve cried out in pain hoping for some relief, God has sent me to give you a straight answer. Do you want to go further? Yes. Then lets not waste any time, God considers you a law-breaker and a stranger to Him, your own conscience knows it and has left you to seek aid. Its time to confess this and know that unless a radical change of heart takes place all this agitation and demands will come to nothing. Will you tell God the truth about yourself, realize youre in danger of punishment for your sins and could this day die in them?? The scriptures speak of a man that prayed and said “God be merciful to me a sinner” and Jesus said he went away Justified before God. Do you believe you are a sinner? Do you believe God will forgive you?
I would continue along this vein until I delivered the whole counsel of God as the Spirit of God lead me. Then I would pray with Him and tell Him not to delay one more moment, that if he believes what God is saying then call upon the name of the Lord and God promises to save.
Feb 20th, 2008
agogley
Sir:
I have the answers you seek! In fact, I have them right here in the Bible. You are right to be fearful and right to expect judgement from the true living God!
Since time is short and death is imminent, let me give you a simple, yet straightforward answer. There is a God. He created both heaven and hell. He will judge all mankind and send those who are found guilty of any sin to Hell. Right now, that includes you. Contrary to popular saying about God being “love”, it is more accurate to say that God is Holy, righteous, and just. The Bible makes it very clear that most of mankind will end up in hell, which is described as a most horrific punishment.
Fortunately, the Bible contains a solution and an answer to your question about forgiveness. All men sin, including yourself as you have already admitted and expressed remorse. The one and only solution for this sin is God’s son, Jesus Christ. Jesus was both fully God and fully human. He was sent by God to be born of a virgin, live as a human, and then die as a sacrifice for sin. He lived on earth without sinning and then was killed as the only adequate sacrifice for sin. Three days after Jesus died, he rose from the dead thereby conquering death and sin.
You cannot earn this sacrifice by good works. In fact, you nor I nor any other person deserves this sacrifice. It is only by God’s grace and mercy that it is available to those God chose before time. In order to receive forgiveness you must have faith in Jesus as your Savior. This means that you believe that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness, that the one and only true God sent his perfect Son, who was both God and Man, to die on the cross for those sins, that he rose from the dead after three days so that he could justify you before God, and that Jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice for your sins.
Now that I have given you the answer you seek, you must decide whether to believe what I have told you or not to believe. This must be true belief in order to save from damnation. Merely mouthing belief is not enough.
If you decide to believe and trust in Jesus as your Savior, then I will be happy to lead you in prayer before God to express and affirm this belief. I will then instruct you and disciple you so that you may follow God for what little time you have left here.
Feb 20th, 2008
agogley
This is excellent practice, Stephen. I think practice makes it easier to do in real life.
Feb 20th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
agogley said: “This is excellent practice…”
I agree. Sure beats doing nothing, then having to think of something clever to say when the need arises, like that lady did. Did anyone catch him ask, “is atonement even possible?” Made me go hmmmm…
Feb 20th, 2008
Fusion!
Wow! If only. This is why I want to do screen writining the future. I wonder if this is the issue brought up in the new movie “Atonement”?
Feb 20th, 2008
John
It may be in the end we shall see that God used the donkey on tv to tell the spineless gospeless ministers to get out. Maybe what was said was meant for a larger audience than just her? Maybe we saw the heart cry of
a nation that has so few ministers willing to tell the truth even at a time of crisis that all that can be said is “get out”.
Feb 20th, 2008
Johnny B
Wow, that is a sad witness of the modern gospel. Hollywood rebuking the promoters of it. I see it as the world saying, you guys and gals, stop, we want to hear the truth. Your definition of love, can’t be truth, I love my children and don’t let them do whatever they what. How could the real Gods love be less then mine?
The character of that show, was stripped of all self-righteousness and was looking for a way to flee the wrath to come.
Feb 20th, 2008
Kirby L. Wallace
We all love having the perfect witnessing ball pitched to us…
Of course, there probably are a lot of such people when they get to this position. So, in that veign, my response: (ALL CAPS denotes emphasis, not yelling)
You, my friend, are far nearer the kingdom of heaven than you might imagine. Most people go all the way to the grave without ever once considering what you are considering, asking the questions you are asking, and demanding what you are.
Yes. There is a real God and a real hell, every bit as much as there is a real earth. And the fact that you are asking these questions is very revealing, and very encouraging. it means God is speaking to you right now - right this very moment.
You are right. How can you possibly hope for forgiveness? How can you hope for atonement? The answer is, you really cannot. The God that you are asking for - a God of Justice, a judge of real rights and real wrongs - he exists, just as you imagine. He is the perfect measure of justice that you seek. He is so perfect in his justice and righteousness that he will NOT forgive your sins. No. He will not.
(Christians: hold your horses….
God is perfectly holy, and perfectly righteous, and perfectly just. He sees with perfect vision. He hears with perfect knowledge. He judges with perfect wisdom. The bad news is that you are none of these things. None of us are! AND GOD KNOWS THIS! But our failure to be as perfectly rightous and holy as he is… that itself is a SIN.
God is JUST. He will not forgive ANY of your sins, not under ANY circumstance. Not for ANY reason. He WILL punish each and every sin with equal “justice for all” that no earthly government will ever attain. He WILL NOT forgive your sin.
But…
He will forgive YOU!
(Christians: See! That wasn’t so bad… You see where this is going already, don’t you…
Make no mistake, God is not mocked. He will not wink at your sin. He will punish it all “to the uttermost farthing.”
But, he is willing to accept the punishment of someone else - someone else who DID live a perfectly righteous life who is willing to take your punishment even though they do not deserve it.
God is willing to take that punishment himself in the form of Jesus Christ. That’s the answer to “how can I hope for forgiveness?” Because you can hope in Jesus Christ! He WANTS you to hope in Jesus Christ. Christ died for you for that very reason! God wants you to trust in the plan that HE has devised for you because he knows it is the only hope that you have. He created this plan for this purpose.
God devised a plan for saving wicked sinful men such as us before he even created any of us. Before the first man ever to sin commited ANY sin at all, God had already devised a plan that would answer all these questions that you are right now asking.
The questions are, really, “Do you believe God?” If so, then “Do you TRUST Him enough to put your life completley in his hands and hope… hope against all hope… hope against all despair that your mind brings you… and TRUST that he is right about you, and that you need to do what he says?”
THAT is the answer you are looking for. God forgives you, not because you are good, and not even because you are worth saving. God saves you because he can and because it glorfies him to do so. And that’s the ONLY reason. And you get to reap the benefits of God’s marvelous work if you will simply trust him to do it.
Jesus lived that life of perfection that you could not. Jesus offered himself as your substitute for punishment. And that punishment has ALREADY been dealt! All that is required now is that you BELIEVE him and trust in HIM to save you.
If you believe all of what I’ve just said, if what I am saying right now has caused a voice in your head to say, “THAT is the truth about me and about God!”, then you my friend are already saved - RIGHT NOW!!!
There is nothing more that you need to do. You have done all that is required. You have BELIEVED GOD and God counts it as righteousness to you. THAT is what the Bible calls REPENTANCE.
If you believe what I’ve just laid out before you, then heaven awaits you. The only thing you lack right now is joy and assurance, but if the light has just gone on in your head and in your heart, you will spend even the rest of your tortured body’s life in exquisite joy in spite of the pain.
God knows you are not perfect. As soon as YOU know that you are not perfect, you are half way there. As soon as you realize that you are not perfect, and Jesus Christ IS, then you have gone all the way. Welcome to the kingdom of God and eternal life. That boy you are worried about? Chances are you may get to see him soon and tell him all this yourself!
Feb 28th, 2008
sarah
I’d be curious how Hollywood answered his question for their watching audience. Did they proclaim Christ crucified or did they leave their audience in limbo? In fighting the Rick Warrens of this world, were they fighting for Christ or were they fighting for the theory that no one can know the truth even when they are desperate and just end up digging up “childhood lessons”?….atheism Before I give Hollywood any credit concerning the Gospel, I would like to know what they did after this scene.
Mar 2nd, 2008
Gregory
Reply: You want the truth?
You are right you do deserve to go to Hell and to be tormented forever and ever. You don’t deserve to be forgiven but God sent His only begotten son born with out sin and lived out the perfect life in perfect obedience to God the Father. He died the death, He shed His blood, He was tortured & tormented, He suffered the full wrath of God which you and I deserve.
On the third day He rose again from the grave because death could not hold Him and if you repent and put your faith in the only who can save that is the Lord Jesus Christ, then death will not hold you either and your sins will be forgiven!
Amazing Grace
Great clip Stephen
Mar 7th, 2008
Travis
BOC
I put this here because it deviates from Gods love and goes to a different issue, that, some isrealites are in hell.
You did not respond, but if ALL of Israel will be saved this means either that, Romans 11 has already been fulfilled and all Israel is saved or you have some Israelites that are somewhere between heaven and hell waiting for the time that all israel will be saved, can you explain where the unbelieving Israelites are right now, that cant be in hell because hell is eternal.
May 5th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
Boc is right to some degree in terms of terminoloy but not conceptionally. All of Israel will be saved absolutely. But the term “Israel” linguistally means “preserved by God.”
So yes, those who are preseved by God (Israel) will be saved. But not all of physical Israel is part of spiritual israel. Physical israel is simply a descendant of Jacob (Israel). Many physical Isralites are in hell (e.g. the pharisees in which Jesus rebukes-matthew 12 & Matthew 23).
Most of the Old Testament kings are probably in hell (e.g. Saul), many Judges are in hell, and the Israelites that bent their knee to Baal are in hell (1 Kings 16-18 =around 870 B.C Elijah prophesies against worship of Baal during reign of Ahab).
If somebody says all of Israel (meaning physical Israel) is and will be saved their theology is B.O.s.C.h.
Remeber, not all of Israel, is Israel (Hosea 9:8).
Jean Cauvin
May 5th, 2008
Travis
Jean
I exegited Romans 11 and BOC ultimatly said All the Nation of Israel will be saved from Moses to the last born Jew. I personally believe that God wiill work with the Nation of Israel again when he sees fit but it will be through faith and by his grace. For now he is working with all Jew and Gentile without reguards of nationality. We shall see.
BOC still holds that Abrahams Bosom is still in affect, he doesnt understand the resurection of the soul and the resurection of the body. But it will do you Jean, no good at discussing these issues with him because he believes the Bible is failable, and the OT is the foundation of his understanding, so we need to discuss that issue before anything.
May 6th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
Travis,
Your theology is better then you think. You seem to have done your homework. The Body of Christ today consists of ALL who are HIs own irregardless of ethnicity. So Jews right now are part of the Body of Christ (those are are elect).
Right now, Israel is very evil (the nation). But via God’s grace the priesthood and Israel will be set up against via His mercy as seen in Revelation.
BOC must claim to be Messianic. Most Messianic “Jews” are extremely pagan in this country. Many deny the Trinity, and many deny most of the New Testament.
He sounds like a living Judaizer that Paul warned the Galatians about around 49 A.D. (Galatians 3:1).
He will realize that his theology on soul sleep is wrong when he experiences global warming in the after-life.
Thanks for the heads up.
Jean Cauvin
May 6th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Jean said: “But via God’s grace the priesthood and Israel will be set up against via His mercy as seen in Revelation.”
According to your understanding, what exactly will be reinstituted “then?” And “when” is this “then? (i.e. millenium?)”
May 6th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
Stephen,
Against met again.
This will begin to be set up after the arpazo (I Thess 4:16-17, I Cor 15:51-52, Rev 1:6).
I know you claim the “first century view.” Which is actually no view at all. Your escatology is agnostic. The first century view via Paul was not agnostic at all. In fact, he claimed to know what he was talking about (I Cor 15:51-52).
You do realize most reformers are a-mill. So we are both non-reformed in this category of theology (assuming you follow Morey on this subject).
Jean Chauvin.
May 6th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
All biblical eschatolog[ies] are agnostic to a degree (Ac. 1:7), or at least they should be. But my question is (and I caught the against/again), what will be (according to your understanding) included in the “set-up” after arpazo? Do you follow Ryrie, Pentecost, et al., in that the Levitical order will be re-established with sacrifices etc.?
May 6th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
Stephen,
Not all eschatologies are agnostic (Paul’s wasn’t).
I do agree that the leviticual order will be set up after the arpazo (Rev 1:6, I’m not a priest, I mediate nothing). However, unlike Ryrie, they imply that law is the means of salvation. I detest that. It has always been and will always be a means of justification by faith alone (Hab 2:4). The law is the manifestation or the unfolding thereof.
Do you disagree with Dr. Morey on any issue? How about your choice in dessert?
Jean Cauvin
May 6th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
“Do you disagree with Dr. Morey on any issue?”
Yes. Eschatology.
What then will the purpose for animal sacrifices be? And when you say after the harpazo, do you mean immediately after - as in the future millenium? I ask because, rather than guessing that you are a post-trib (modified) classic dispensationalist, I’d rather ask you and know for sure. But it does sound this way to me. Does Rev. 1:6 function as your primary proof-text?
May 6th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
Stephen,
You do not adhere to Morey’s 1st century agnostic view of eschatology?
I am pre-trib. The tribulation will happen after the arpazo. I will not be going though any tribulation. At that point the plan will be set up for Israel and its unfillfilled promises.
Jean Cauvin
May 7th, 2008
Travis
This is one thing that we can all disagree on and still be brothers. As long as we all agree that no part of Israel will be saved apart from the blood of Christ. According to BOC salvation is of the Jews, very inconsistant with other parts of scripture about Jews and Gentiles being of one tree, and those that are cut off will burn because the have not faith and they have not grace. And our Glorious King will be coming again.
This brings up BOCs Soul Sleep. Since he uses the OT as his foundation what are some scripture refrences that refer to the eternal state of a persons soul after Christ, I thought there were a couple prophecies that talked about this issue.
May 7th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Jean said: “You do not adhere to Morey’s 1st century agnostic view of eschatology?”
Morey’s 1st century agnostic view? When has he ever announced that his eschatological view is “1st century agnostic?” If I stretch and reach, I can imagine the reasoning behind someone describing his view as such, but would have to assume that the person was at best, only slightly familiar with some of the characteristic tenets in his position. But no, I do not adhere *exactly* to that position. Your straw-man’s are killing me!
May 7th, 2008
Jean Cauvin
Stephen,
Assertion does not equate reality. You can keep straw-manning me but I’m simply lifting the blouse of the naked monkey behind Morey’s eschatology.
Since you are not full blown agnostic (eschatologically speaking), then tell me your understanding of eschatology. I’ve sun-bathed for you among the biblicalthought beaches of doctrine. Perhaps it’s your turn. Let’s hope your theology isn’t found where the sun don’t shine : )
I’ve expressed my view of eschatology a little, why would you disagree/agree and where are you at on this?
Jean Cauvin
May 7th, 2008
Travis
How does Dr. Bobs eschatology differ than Jeans and Stephens, because what I have read makes a lot biblical sense but I am still piecing my escatology together, because I see the evidence of Amillenialism, but understand the future of the Jews.
May 7th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Jean,
The further you take this, the longer your straw man sun-bathes and becomes drier and more brittle. If you are asserting that Morey is (eschatologically) full blown agnostic, and that this is the naked monkey, then my friend, you have erected a straw man and I’m calling you on it.
If, by agnostic, you are referring to his applying the Acts 1:7 passage that he uses to prove that no one will know of the “chronos e kairos,” then the only viable alternative would be a gnostic eschatology. That is not what you are saying you hold, is it?
The labeling of his eschatology as agnostic is wanting. For example, he openly teaches that “apokalupsis” meant (1st century) “unveiling” of hidden mysteries “concerning the future as it relates to the ultimate outcome of the final battle between good and evil at the End of the world” (Jewish Apocalypticism and Biblical Prophecy pg. 2).
He also teaches that the term “apocalyptic” became a literary and theological term to describe any literature that “unveiled” the End of the world. His eschatological view is by no means agnostic in the way you are using the word. I bring it up because you tend to give the perception that you know Morey and his theology so well - yet you don’t; only certain shades of the distinctives, maybe.
He argues that there was indeed A 1st century view, and he claims that he holds to THAT view. Many times he has explained what that view was, and never has he said or implied that nothing can be known about the End times or last things.
My view, being the “Goy” that I am, is a somewhat compartmentalized mixture of Morey’s view and classic amillenarianism (minus the classic 1 Cor. 15 chronological interpretation). He would say that I am imposing Western thought onto Jewish concepts, resulting in a deficient view, but I can’t help it at this point in my understanding; he and the amillennial position both seem to be exegetically verifyable. I find his argument for the abandonment of apocalypticism by the Jewish rabbis to be very compelling. I also find the hermeneutical distinction between epistolary, apocalyptic, and prophetic literature to be fascinating (as seen in the Hermeneutical Spiral by Grant Osborne).
One of the more attractive features to his eschatology is this:
“One of the main purposes of apocalyptic literature is to compfort the afflicted and persecuted saints with the assurance that in the End justice shall prevail, the devil will lose, the Messiah will establish his eternal kingdom, the earth will be made into a Paradise once again, and we will be raised immortal and incorruptable JA&BP pg. 19).
He always seems to see the big picture of eschatology, among other things…
May 7th, 2008
Stephen Macasil
Jean, sorry I missed this: “I’ve expressed my view of eschatology a little, why would you disagree/agree and where are you at on this?”
Having been raised dispensational by my father (taught by Feinberg et al at Talbot Seminary way back when), I have a basic understanding of the various strands of dispensationalism and its “progression” from Darby to Bock. I have abandoned dispensationalism as a whole, but still agree with many tenets, especially those shared with New Covenant theology. Since your eschatological view is a by-product of your dispensationalism, and I say that respectfully, I cannot agree without adopting dispensational hermeneutics (which I view as exegetically unsound).
The main disagreements would probably be with dispensationalism’s “unfulfilled” promises to Israel and their future literal fulfillment, the nature of the New Covenant, and the overall history of redemption (the covenants, National Israel, the Church, the Kingdom, etc.).
May 7th, 2008
Reply to “A Real God and a Real Hell”